[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
steve smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Mon Jul 8 12:51:48 EDT 2024
Sabine H. snarked this at me... and I responded by trying to read
through the AI hype sprinkled with Quantum Dust... I think it is
(obliquely?) relevant to our Consciousness Maunderings here.
QUALL-E, a quantum computer running a human-level artificial
intelligence algorithm, who has observed a quantum system
https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/
> Frank,
>
> embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators
> like Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him?
>
> Consider the Simtable that uses structured light
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a
> perception-action loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological
> psychology) with the projector camera feedback to recover a dynamic 3D
> model of its world and watch with its camera for human interaction
> (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to trigger
> corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the user.
> Is it embodied?
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson
> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think of large language models as the most embodied things
> on the planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps.
>
> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is
> essential to self-awareness. Does that believe arise from
> ideology, authority, or some set of facts I need to take
> account of. To be honest here, I should say where I am coming
> from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing against
> circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So,
> if language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not
> have language, then it indeed follows that animals do not have
> self-awareness. But what if our method for detecting self
> awareness requires language? Now we are in a loop. Are we in
> such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent of
> language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is
> self awareness extricable from language?
>
> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that
> humans have soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the
> new soul?
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm
> <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have
> meta-awareness because they lack language. They live in
> the present moment, in the here and now. Without language
> they do not have the capability to reflect on their past
> or to think about their future. They can not formulate
> stories of themselves which could help to form a sense of
> identity. Language is the mirror in which we perceive
> ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this
> mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not
> count as language.
>
> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do
> not have a body which is embedded as a actor in an
> environment. These two things are necessary: the physical
> world of bodies, and the mental world of language. When
> both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is
> Deeper Than We Thought
>
> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he
> thought, and since I genuinely don[t know what I think
> until I work it out, the conversation has the same
> quality. I apologize for that. my students found it
> truly distressing.
>
> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat
> has meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there
> some experience you have had that leads you to think
> that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't because
> animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".
> (e.g., scent marking?)
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm
> <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in
> response to one's own awareness then I would say
> animals like a cat don't have it but humans have. As
> an example I could say this almost feels like I am a
> participant in a dialogue from Plato...
>
> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple
> terms. If the essence of consciousness is subjective
> experience then it is indeed hard to describe by a
> theory although there are many attempts. Persons who
> perceive things differently are wired differently. And
> what is more subjective than the perception of oneself?
>
> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>
>
> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as
> a way an information feels if it is processed in
> complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a
> strange attractor.
>
> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness
> Is Deeper Than We Thought
>
> ,
>
> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we
> aren't moving." So, can I define some new terms,
> tentatively, /per explorandum/ ? Let's call
> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".
> Allowing this definition, we certainly seem to agree
> that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness as
> acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I
> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness
> with consciousness and that you think that the cat is
> not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further
> that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm
> <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that
> it is aware of its immediate environment. Cats are
> nocturnal animals who hunt at night and mostly
> sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense
> of being aware of oneself as an actor in an
> environment requires understanding of language
> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
> Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
>
> Jochen,
>
> /I think the first step in any conversation is to
> decide whether your cat is conscious. If so, why
> do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a
> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether
> he was conscious and he denied it "hotly", which,
> of course, met one of his criteria for consciousness.
> /
> /
> /
> /So. Is your cat connscious?
> /
> /
> /
> /Nick
> /
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm
> <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our
> children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten
> to college and university, to teach them all
> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how
> they can be conscious. It will be the same for
> AI: first we spend millions and millions to
> train them all available knowledge, and then
> we wonder how they can develop understanding
> of language and consciousness...
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>
>
> -J.
>
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