[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Tue Jul 16 15:28:07 EDT 2024

There’s a large black male dog at the dog park with a very large red chew ball that it brings every day.   It won’t share the ball with any dog.   Abby is infuriated by this and would mercilessly attack him using her cattle dog speed and smarts until he yielded (if she were allowed).   Wanting a thing is highly context dependent.     It was one of the first dogs she met in the area, and she has given indicators of hatred since then.   I dread seeing that dog.   “I’m a gonna beat on Jimmy’s head today…”

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 12:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

These are fascinating.  Particularly, the attempt to displace you from the couch.  Each of you chooses alternative means to convey your experience of the other. In the end, you seem to compromise without actually understanding one another. If you would like to go over it frame by frame, I am your mind.  I think if you look at the first few frames, he gives a way his intention to settle down in your spot.  

N

On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:32 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

So sad! 

https://www.tiktok.com/@itsgatsbytime/video/7271730952144014635?is_from_webapp=1 <https://www.tiktok.com/@itsgatsbytime/video/7271730952144014635?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc> &sender_device=pc

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 10:21 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Another fabulous example.   Sad to say, I have never held hands with a dog.   

Nick

On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:13 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

It shows that one can have a prior, and modify it based on other evidence.   I do not have another explanation for why she would offer her paw to be held when driving. 

“Offer” means she repeatedly taps me with it until I hold it, then she licks me once on the cheek. 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 10:08 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Great example.   The difference between affection is resolved by other experiences that precede, go with,  and follow on the scratching.

in that connection, can I  be an asshole and quibble with you use of the term "express".   As a metaphor, it implies that the affection lurks somewhere under the skin of the dog and that the scratching is an effusion of some inner pressure.  Its use, blinds us to the evident facts surrounding the scratching. If it were affectionate  scratching  your getting up and leaving the sofa would not be followed by the dog taking your warm spot and sighing gratefully.  It would be followed by the dog following you into the next room, etc.  

Nick

On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 12:51 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

Ok, here’s another example.   My dog paws at me when I’m sitting on the couch.   At first it appeared to be an expression of affection.   Then I realized what she really wanted:  Move and give her the space.    She did the same thing with her male sibling (a dog), and he would get rattled and walk away.

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 9:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Hi, All,

Some;body  on this thread suggested that I read the recent article on whale communication research in Hah-Vud Mag.  It was interesting, but it left me screaming and beating the magazine with my fists in many places.  

If anybody would like to chat about it, I am here for that.  Two comments to poke the fire a bit:

If this is to be the first time we communicate with another species, what on earth have i been doing with my dog, all these years?

If you want to understand an alien intelligence, you sure as hell  don't start with human based categories.  You start with a broader perspective and place both the human and the alien within it.  Ethology got started because its predecessor, comparative psychology, was obsessed with imposing human categories on animals.  Finding out what birdsong is actually doing has been slowed up for generations by the twin metaphors of music and language.  

Beware lure of charismatic science. Just remember, charisma is a transaction between an individual and an audience in which the individual engages unspoken needs of the audience and the audience rewards him/her with notoriety   Most humans are desperate to have their preconceptions confirmed.  

AAAAARGH!

n

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net <mailto:jofr at cas-group.net> > wrote:

I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and consciousness...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/

-J.

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-- 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology

Clark University

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-- 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology

Clark University

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-- 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology

Clark University

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-- 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology

Clark University

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