[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Tue Jul 16 15:38:31 EDT 2024

So, wanting the ball is a behavioral structure that we both could see and
discuss.   It occurs over time and is not occasion specific.

It's important to distinguish between anthropomorphism and anecdotalism.
I guess what I am arguing for is a kind of critical anecdotalism in which
we line up our understandings with respect to experiences we share, rather
than with citations of authorities.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 3:28 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> There’s a large black male dog at the dog park with a very large red chew
> ball that it brings every day.   It won’t share the ball with any dog.
> Abby is infuriated by this and would mercilessly attack him using her
> cattle dog speed and smarts until he yielded (if she were allowed).
> Wanting a thing is highly context dependent.     It was one of the first
> dogs she met in the area, and she has given indicators of hatred since
> then.   I dread seeing that dog.   “I’m a gonna beat on Jimmy’s head today…”
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 12:19 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
>
>
> These are fascinating.  Particularly, the attempt to displace you from the
> couch.  Each of you chooses alternative means to convey your experience of
> the other. In the end, you seem to compromise without actually
> understanding one another. If you would like to go over it frame by frame,
> I am your mind.  I think if you look at the first few frames, he gives a
> way his intention to settle down in your spot.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:32 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> So sad!
>
>
> https://www.tiktok.com/@itsgatsbytime/video/7271730952144014635?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 10:21 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
>
>
> Another fabulous example.   Sad to say, I have never held hands with a
> dog.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:13 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> It shows that one can have a prior, and modify it based on other
> evidence.   I do not have another explanation for why she would offer her
> paw to be held when driving.
>
> “Offer” means she repeatedly taps me with it until I hold it, then she
> licks me once on the cheek.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 10:08 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
>
>
> Great example.   The difference between affection is resolved by other
> experiences that precede, go with,  and follow on the scratching.
>
>
>
> in that connection, can I  be an asshole and quibble with you use of the
> term "express".   As a metaphor, it implies that the affection lurks
> somewhere under the skin of the dog and that the scratching is an effusion
> of some inner pressure.  Its use, blinds us to the evident facts
> surrounding the scratching. If it were affectionate  scratching  your
> getting up and leaving the sofa would not be followed by the dog taking
> your warm spot and sighing gratefully.  It would be followed by the dog
> following you into the next room, etc.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 12:51 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ok, here’s another example.   My dog paws at me when I’m sitting on the
> couch.   At first it appeared to be an expression of affection.   Then I
> realized what she really wanted:  Move and give her the space.    She did
> the same thing with her male sibling (a dog), and he would get rattled and
> walk away.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 9:43 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
>
>
> Hi, All,
>
>
>
> Some;body  on this thread suggested that I read the recent article on
> whale communication research in Hah-Vud Mag.  It was interesting, but it
> left me screaming and beating the magazine with my fists in many places.
>
>
>
> If anybody would like to chat about it, I am here for that.  Two comments
> to poke the fire a bit:
>
>
>
> If this is to be the first time we communicate with another species, what
> on earth have i been doing with my dog, all these years?
>
>
>
> If you want to understand an alien intelligence, you sure as hell  don't
> start with human based categories.  You start with a broader perspective
> and place both the human and the alien within it.  Ethology got started
> because its predecessor, comparative psychology, was obsessed with imposing
> human categories on animals.  Finding out what birdsong is actually doing
> has been slowed up for generations by the twin metaphors of music and
> language.
>
>
>
> Beware lure of charismatic science. Just remember, charisma is a
> transaction between an individual and an audience in which the individual
> engages unspoken needs of the audience and the audience rewards him/her
> with notoriety   Most humans are desperate to have their preconceptions
> confirmed.
>
>
>
> AAAAARGH!
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school,
> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of
> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the
> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
> of language and consciousness...
>
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
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> --
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>
> Clark University
>
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>
> --
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>
> Clark University
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>
>
> --
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>
> Clark University
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>
> Clark University
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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