[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Prof David West
profwest at fastmail.fm
Wed Jul 17 16:49:42 EDT 2024
> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog) a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.
**Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions. Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what would you tell me to look for?**
the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is your request. around the 15th of July.
Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining what they want.
Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee, establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request.
Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. Dusty has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted to vocalize herself.
if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern.
I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely, for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training.
davew
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> David, and all.
>
> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences.
>
> **Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small bark/yip while staring.**
>
> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that, Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original attribution.
>
> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave.
>
> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.
>
> Nick
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part, Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other questions—and the answer appears to be not far.
>>
>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted with no concern.
>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa.
>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs.
>>
>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards consensus of any kind.
>>
>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me:
>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small bark/yip while staring.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote:
>> > Nick -
>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I
>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness.
>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of
>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central
>> > creatures in my household.
>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank.
>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as far
>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in particular) does.
>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self
>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method goes
>> >> something like this
>> >>
>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is conscious.
>> >
>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of
>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the
>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at.
>> >
>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only allows
>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging her
>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second
>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, acts,
>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top of
>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary
>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive
>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an
>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the world.
>> >
>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship with" a
>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think that is
>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees them
>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious.
>> >
>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious,
>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than
>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now
>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if
>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious
>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious
>> >> beings do.
>> >
>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that A,
>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense.
>> >
>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion,
>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and
>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of
>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the
>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or
>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their
>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of their
>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like the
>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet more
>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to learn...
>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them the
>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the tip
>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be
>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from
>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very
>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal observations).
>> >
>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"...
>> >
>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong
>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say yes.
>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their
>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they
>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root growth
>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this
>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under the
>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be entirely
>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual
>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which
>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a branch or
>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not
>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then perhaps
>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic
>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of "proto-consciousness"
>> > to?
>> >
>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or systems
>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in
>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their own ways.
>> >
>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very hard
>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it
>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the
>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all of
>> > these are predators, no?
>> >
>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
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