[FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance
Gary Schiltz
gary at naturesvisualarts.com
Wed Jul 17 19:07:45 EDT 2024
Steve - I assume your question of "how many 'political refugees' can
you take in there" is rhetorical. Although the incredibly bureaucratic
system here makes actually getting a long-term visa a bit of a pain in
practice, it is quite straightforward if one has the resources (proven
income from retirement or a moderate sum of money to invest). I think
the monthly income requirement is under $1000 and the investment
necessary (through a bank CD that yields probably about 7%) is around
$40K. That's the easy part.
Aside from it being very difficult to live here without at least a
rudimentary fluency in Spanish, the difficult part for many naive
"political refugees" is the culture shock of living in a country with
very different assumptions. Example one: there are no "good samaritan"
laws to protect drivers. If you are involved in a traffic accident
that results in injuries, you automatically are taken to "traffic
jail" until you can appear before a judge to determine if you have
committed an offense. These jails are apparently not so bad (not
really prisons, but more like barracks where you can't leave), but
still, they are quite an inconvenience. This can even happen if you
weren't involved in the accident, other than stopping to see if
someone along the road appears to be injured and waiting for an
ambulance to arrive. If you look like you have money, the person may
well lie to extort money from you. So the conventional wisdom here is
don't stop to help someone, and if you are involved in a traffic
accident, it is best to flee.
Example two: the police are generally pretty corrupt. Though not
common in the part of the country where I live, in other provinces
nearer the coast, there are routine traffic stops to check that your
papers are in order. They often will tell you to just pull over to the
side of the road and wait for them to determine what to do with you.
In reality, they're waiting for you to come to a "gentleman's
agreement" to expedite your permission to go on your way. That
agreement usually involves "paying the fine right here" for $20 or
more.
Example three: continuing with the police corruption (or incompetence)
theme, conventional wisdom says that if you're a victim of a crime
(robbery, assault), contacting the police is useless. The onus is on
you to go to the police station and file a police report, and it seems
to require that you name someone as the robber/assaulter. So much
crime goes unreported.
I've painted a pretty bleak picture, but in practice, you just have to
"learn the ropes". I suspect that many Latin American countries are
similar. But despite these warts, it is a beautiful land and the
people are generally extremely friendly (if not always honest). Having
lived here now for 16 years, I have come to accept these problems and
would never move back to the USA for a couple of reasons: first, I can
live, on my fixed income, a middle class lifestyle, whereas in the USA
I would be in poverty; and second, even though there are strong
political differences among people here, people of opposing views can
discuss those views without getting so bent out of shape, and
certainly don't reach the level of hatred as the right and left have
for each other in the USA. The society is "muy tranquilo" (very calm)
and the unofficial motto seems to be "todo bien" (everything is okay).
Gary
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:26 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
> As things slide off toward more and more (probability of and depth of) authoriatarian intolerance I find myself trying to reign my self back in to the question of what to do with my offense and real concern for the nation (and world): I do I prepare to be a Schindler or a Bonhoffer?
>
> Too many of my (more Lefty) acquaintances are ideating exhaustively about "leaving the country" while I am trying to guess who more likely to suffer acutely if Project 2025 and it's promulgators become the standard than I (elderish professional class white male with a scruffy beard, farmer's tan and a few callouses who is most comfortable wearing jeans and workboots, who owns a pickup truck).
>
> We have one friend who has been homeless in her life, has significant emotional disabilities but has had her life on track for over 10 years now, but only with significant "gub'mnt assistance". Two of her three siblings are in even worse shape, living much closer to the edge financially and mentally... she moved from here to be close to them and help as she could 5 or 6 years ago. She is baldfaced scared that her siblings and likely herself will end up on the streets (again) in a heartbeat and possibly driven to worse things in the process. I think *we* could help her enough that she could keep helping her siblings avoid a complete failure to thrive... so that is one thing.
> Another is a friend who has finally obtained permanent resident status after decades of bouncing between temporary work visas and returning to the highlands of MX, all the time working as hard as he could, birthing and raising two children (who are American Citizens by birth, aka "anchor babies") and now some grandchildren. He doesn't openly worry or grouse, but I could feel the relief when his permanent residence status (and that of his wife in a similar time frame) came through. While I think he is on the "safe" side of immigration rules being turned inside out, I'm sure he is worried about it as well as whether the intolerant elements of our community might feel (more) liberated in directing their "performative cruelty" in his family's direction. Helping him could come in many forms, not sure what they are quite yet.
> I'm sure there are others... others I won't think of until I sit with it for a while?
>
> Gary, how many "political refugees" can you take in there in Ecuador? I doubt my canoe can traverse the coast around the Darien Gap, but it might be worth a try... (probably trade it on the south-end for something of value or at least some good intel on how to get to your place?) or just stay here and channel Schindler and Bonhoffer?
>
> - Steve
>
> On 7/17/24 3:45 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> Well, as a theoretical matter, it's hard to say what would happen if
> Biden were to try to knock off Trump. I can't in my wildest dreams
> imagine that killing a political opponent would be considered to be an
> official act of the president. As a practical matter? No chance he
> would do more than fantasize about it, because I believe he is an
> honorable man (for a politician) who cares about his legacy. What a
> legacy that would be. But ignoring all that, if he *did* do it, just
> remember which side (left or right) has the guns. And boy oh boy do
> they have guns. It would at a minimum result in an armed, violent
> insurrection, and I even wonder if the military would support him or
> the insurrectionists. I certainly consider this type of action to be
> treasonous.
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:04 PM Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't want to drag this out forever, but ... The immunity decision is extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break the law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if charges are brought against him.
>
> -- Russ Abbott
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting citizens (that don't protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a citizen and holding them for a very long time before charging them are the in-between wiggle room. And we have things like opening investigations into them, etc. And it would be pretty easy to "disappear" a nobody like me. I think it's not so easy to disappear Trump. Anyway, there are some pretty hard constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and such. The only way the President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to deem them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're on US soil, (again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE, or something, not the Navy or CIA.
>
> IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a good quip in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the mechanics to do it with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of doing it Nixon- or Hoover- style, of course.)
>
> I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of this, though.
>
>
> On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote:
>
> I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all that.
>
> -- Russ
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in court. If assassination of citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately ruled an "official" action, we've already lost the Republic and committing the actual deed would be futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic is already lost.
>
> On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?
> >
> > -- Russ
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.
> >
> > Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D
> >
> > On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.
> > > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.
> > >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:
> > >>> [Scott's] Prayer
> > >>> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117> <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/> <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>>). This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?
> > >>>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
More information about the Friam
mailing list