[FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

Wed Jul 17 18:25:42 EDT 2024

As things slide off toward more and more (probability of and depth of) 
authoriatarian intolerance I find myself trying to reign my self back in 
to the question of what to do with my offense and real concern for the 
nation (and world):  I do I prepare to be a Schindler 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler> or a Bonhoffer 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer>?

Too many of my (more Lefty) acquaintances are ideating exhaustively 
about "leaving the country" while I am trying to guess who more likely 
to suffer acutely if Project 2025 and it's promulgators become the 
standard than I (elderish professional class white male with a scruffy 
beard, farmer's tan and a few callouses who is most comfortable wearing 
jeans and workboots, who owns a pickup truck).

 1. We have one friend who has been homeless in her life, has
    significant emotional disabilities but has had her life on track for
    over 10 years now, but only with significant "gub'mnt assistance". 
    Two of her three siblings are in even worse shape, living much
    closer to the edge financially and mentally... she moved from here
    to be close to them and help as she could 5 or 6 years ago.  She is
    baldfaced scared that her siblings and likely herself will end up on
    the streets (again) in a heartbeat and possibly driven to worse
    things in the process.   I think *we* could help her enough that she
    could keep helping her siblings avoid a complete failure to
    thrive...   so that is one thing.
 2. Another is a friend who has finally obtained permanent resident
    status after decades of bouncing between temporary work visas and
    returning to the highlands of MX, all the time working as hard as he
    could, birthing and raising two children (who are American Citizens
    by birth, aka "anchor babies") and now some grandchildren.  He
    doesn't openly worry or grouse, but I could feel the relief when his
    permanent residence status (and that of his wife in a similar time
    frame) came through.   While I think he is on the "safe" side of
    immigration rules being turned inside out, I'm sure he is worried
    about it as well as whether the intolerant elements of our community
    might feel (more) liberated in directing their "performative
    cruelty" in his family's direction.   Helping him could come in many
    forms, not sure what they are quite yet.
 3. I'm sure there are others...  others I won't think of until I sit
    with it for a while?

Gary, how many "political refugees" can you take in there in Ecuador?   
I doubt my canoe can traverse the coast around the Darien Gap, but it 
might be worth a try... (probably trade it on the south-end for 
something of value or at least some good intel on how to get to your 
place?)   or just stay here and channel Schindler and Bonhoffer?

- Steve

On 7/17/24 3:45 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> Well, as a theoretical matter, it's hard to say what would happen if
> Biden were to try to knock off Trump. I can't in my wildest dreams
> imagine that killing a political opponent would be considered to be an
> official act of the president. As a practical matter? No chance he
> would do more than fantasize about it, because I believe he is an
> honorable man (for a politician) who cares about his legacy. What a
> legacy that would be. But ignoring all that, if he *did* do it, just
> remember which side (left or right) has the guns. And boy oh boy do
> they have guns. It would at a minimum result in an armed, violent
> insurrection, and I even wonder if the military would support him or
> the insurrectionists. I certainly consider this type of action to be
> treasonous.
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:04 PM Russ Abbott<russ.abbott at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Don't want to drag this out forever, but ...  The immunity decision is extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break the law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if charges are brought against him.
>>
>> -- Russ Abbott
>> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
>> California State University, Los Angeles
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen<gepropella at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting citizens (that don't protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a citizen and holding them for a very long time before charging them are the in-between wiggle room. And we have things like opening investigations into them, etc. And it would be pretty easy to "disappear" a nobody like me. I think it's not so easy to disappear Trump. Anyway, there are some pretty hard constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and such. The only way the President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to deem them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're on US soil, (again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE, or something, not the Navy or CIA.
>>>
>>> IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a good quip in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the mechanics to do it with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of doing it Nixon- or Hoover- style, of course.)
>>>
>>> I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of this, though.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote:
>>>> I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all that.
>>>>
>>>> -- Russ
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com  <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in court. If assassination of citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately ruled an "official" action, we've already lost the Republic and committing the actual deed would be futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic is already lost.
>>>>
>>>>      On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote:
>>>>       > Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?
>>>>       >
>>>>       > -- Russ
>>>>       >
>>>>       > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com  <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>  <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com  <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>       >
>>>>       >     Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.
>>>>       >
>>>>       >     Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D
>>>>       >
>>>>       >     On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:
>>>>       >      > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.
>>>>       >      > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>       >      >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.
>>>>       >      >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:
>>>>       >      >>> [Scott's] Prayer
>>>>       >      >>>https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117  <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>  <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117  <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>>
>>>>       >      >>>
>>>>       >      >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cfhttps://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/  <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>  <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/  <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>>). This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?
>>>>       >      >>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>    1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>    1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>    1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20240717/24aa4674/attachment.html>