[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Nicholas Thompson
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 20:55:28 EDT 2024
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no
> rel)?
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>> Nick, et alii behavioristae -
>>
>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I understand
>> to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be self-conscious
>> even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other vertebrates maybe
>> self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate
>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"...
>> showing off, being shy, etc.
>>
>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday I
>> went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for about
>> $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets"
>> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed
>> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little
>> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30
>> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and
>> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish
>> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming
>> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation
>> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming
>> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam
>> all over the dam, oh damn!" .
>>
>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the
>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than
>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I
>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter,
>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing
>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to
>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies,
>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were
>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp
>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size
>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for
>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again
>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond
>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing
>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or
>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both
>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds
>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers
>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or
>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the
>> circulation going in the coldest periods).
>>
>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or the
>> 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name
>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of
>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are
>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of
>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand
>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a
>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the
>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe
>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?).
>>
>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world and
>> run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in Friston's
>> various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, Dynamic Causal
>> Modeling, Active Inference
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>).
>>
>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce
>> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill.
>> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to
>> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to
>> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than
>> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into
>> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower?
>> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just
>> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of
>> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat
>> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to
>> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge
>> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on
>> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all
>> animals do.
>>
>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are
>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the
>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some
>> are big on insects...
>>
>> (typing like nobody is reading)....
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind in
>> everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad
>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my
>> keyboard.
>>
>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to
>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to
>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the
>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could
>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all
>> self-conscious.
>>
>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am going
>> there now.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog) a
>>>> treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty
>>>> that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of
>>>> Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions.
>>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what
>>> would you tell me to look for?*
>>>
>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is your
>>> request. around the 15th of July.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution
>>> of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining
>>> what they want.
>>>
>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a
>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places
>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee,
>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request.
>>>
>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these
>>> days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. Dusty
>>> has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted
>>> to vocalize herself.
>>>
>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise and
>>> see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern.
>>>
>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous
>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely,
>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training.
>>>
>>> davew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>> David, and all.
>>>
>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I
>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say
>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I
>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I
>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here
>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences.
>>>
>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand,
>>> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at
>>> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring'
>>> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small
>>> bark/yip while staring.*
>>>
>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I
>>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant
>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it
>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels
>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with
>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow
>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree
>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we
>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other
>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your
>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the
>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an
>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that
>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you
>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that,
>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original
>>> attribution.
>>>
>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave.
>>>
>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> davew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part,
>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we
>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch
>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had
>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other
>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far.
>>>
>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted with
>>> no concern.
>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa.
>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), inter-species
>>> (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional nuances
>>> (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the
>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs.
>>>
>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am curious
>>> as to whether or not we are really making progress towards consensus of any
>>> kind.
>>>
>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me:
>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand,
>>> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at
>>> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring'
>>> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small
>>> bark/yip while staring.
>>>
>>> davew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote:
>>> > Nick -
>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I
>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness.
>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of
>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central
>>> > creatures in my household.
>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank.
>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as far
>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in particular)
>>> does.
>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self
>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method goes
>>> >> something like this
>>> >>
>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is
>>> conscious.
>>> >
>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of
>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the
>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at.
>>> >
>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only
>>> allows
>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging her
>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second
>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, acts,
>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top of
>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary
>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive
>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an
>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the
>>> world.
>>> >
>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship with"
>>> a
>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think that
>>> is
>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees
>>> them
>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious.
>>> >
>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious,
>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than
>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now
>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if
>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious
>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious
>>> >> beings do.
>>> >
>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that A,
>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense.
>>> >
>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion,
>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and
>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of
>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the
>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or
>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their
>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of their
>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like the
>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet more
>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to learn...
>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them the
>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the tip
>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be
>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from
>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very
>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal
>>> observations).
>>> >
>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"...
>>> >
>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong
>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say
>>> yes.
>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their
>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they
>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root growth
>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this
>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under the
>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be entirely
>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual
>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which
>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a branch
>>> or
>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not
>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then perhaps
>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic
>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of
>>> "proto-consciousness"
>>> > to?
>>> >
>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or
>>> systems
>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in
>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their own
>>> ways.
>>> >
>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very hard
>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it
>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the
>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all of
>>> > these are predators, no?
>>> >
>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>>
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>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
>
--
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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