[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Nicholas Thompson
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 21:10:38 EDT 2024
All,
I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our
shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we
are in interaction with are conscious.
Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do about
that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to resolve
it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the heartland
of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that
A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what sort of
anecdote would elicit such an experience.
N
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no
>> rel)?
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae -
>>>
>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I
>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be
>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other
>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate
>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"...
>>> showing off, being shy, etc.
>>>
>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday I
>>> went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for about
>>> $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets"
>>> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed
>>> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little
>>> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30
>>> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and
>>> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish
>>> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming
>>> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation
>>> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming
>>> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam
>>> all over the dam, oh damn!" .
>>>
>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the
>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than
>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I
>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter,
>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing
>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to
>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies,
>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were
>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp
>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size
>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for
>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again
>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond
>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing
>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or
>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both
>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds
>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers
>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or
>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the
>>> circulation going in the coldest periods).
>>>
>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or the
>>> 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name
>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of
>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are
>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of
>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand
>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a
>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the
>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe
>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?).
>>>
>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world and
>>> run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in Friston's
>>> various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, Dynamic
>>> Causal Modeling, Active Inference
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>).
>>>
>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce
>>> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill.
>>> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to
>>> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to
>>> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than
>>> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into
>>> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower?
>>> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just
>>> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of
>>> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat
>>> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to
>>> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge
>>> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on
>>> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all
>>> animals do.
>>>
>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are
>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the
>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some
>>> are big on insects...
>>>
>>> (typing like nobody is reading)....
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind in
>>> everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad
>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my
>>> keyboard.
>>>
>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to
>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to
>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the
>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could
>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all
>>> self-conscious.
>>>
>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am
>>> going there now.
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog)
>>>>> a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty
>>>>> that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of
>>>>> Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions.
>>>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what
>>>> would you tell me to look for?*
>>>>
>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is
>>>> your request. around the 15th of July.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution
>>>> of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining
>>>> what they want.
>>>>
>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a
>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places
>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee,
>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request.
>>>>
>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these
>>>> days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. Dusty
>>>> has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted
>>>> to vocalize herself.
>>>>
>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise
>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern.
>>>>
>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous
>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely,
>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training.
>>>>
>>>> davew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> David, and all.
>>>>
>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I
>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say
>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I
>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I
>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here
>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences.
>>>>
>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>> small bark/yip while staring.*
>>>>
>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I
>>>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant
>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it
>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels
>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with
>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow
>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree
>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we
>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other
>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your
>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the
>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an
>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that
>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you
>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that,
>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original
>>>> attribution.
>>>>
>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave.
>>>>
>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> davew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part,
>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we
>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch
>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had
>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other
>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far.
>>>>
>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted
>>>> with no concern.
>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa.
>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), inter-species
>>>> (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional nuances
>>>> (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the
>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs.
>>>>
>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am curious
>>>> as to whether or not we are really making progress towards consensus of any
>>>> kind.
>>>>
>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me:
>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand,
>>>> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at
>>>> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring'
>>>> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small
>>>> bark/yip while staring.
>>>>
>>>> davew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote:
>>>> > Nick -
>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I
>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness.
>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of
>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central
>>>> > creatures in my household.
>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank.
>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as
>>>> far
>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in particular)
>>>> does.
>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self
>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method
>>>> goes
>>>> >> something like this
>>>> >>
>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is
>>>> conscious.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of
>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the
>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at.
>>>> >
>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only
>>>> allows
>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging
>>>> her
>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second
>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers,
>>>> acts,
>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top
>>>> of
>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary
>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive
>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an
>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the
>>>> world.
>>>> >
>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship
>>>> with" a
>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think that
>>>> is
>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees
>>>> them
>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious.
>>>> >
>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is
>>>> conscious,
>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than
>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now
>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if
>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious
>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious
>>>> >> beings do.
>>>> >
>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that
>>>> A,
>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense.
>>>> >
>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion,
>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and
>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of
>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the
>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or
>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their
>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of
>>>> their
>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like
>>>> the
>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet more
>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to learn...
>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them
>>>> the
>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the
>>>> tip
>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be
>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from
>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very
>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal
>>>> observations).
>>>> >
>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"...
>>>> >
>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong
>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say
>>>> yes.
>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their
>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they
>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root growth
>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this
>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under the
>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be
>>>> entirely
>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual
>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which
>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a branch
>>>> or
>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not
>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then
>>>> perhaps
>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic
>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of
>>>> "proto-consciousness"
>>>> > to?
>>>> >
>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or
>>>> systems
>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in
>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their own
>>>> ways.
>>>> >
>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very
>>>> hard
>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it
>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the
>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all
>>>> of
>>>> > these are predators, no?
>>>> >
>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>> Clark University
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>>
>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
>
--
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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