[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

Fri Jul 19 12:48:15 EDT 2024

Hi, everybody.  We are veering into meta again.  Ugh.

Where Nick is trying to get is a method for him and David and Jochen to
converse productively about consciousness.  A productive conversation, for
Nick, is one that produces agreement, at least agreement on the terms of
disagreement.  Anecdotes come in because I am beginning to think that
anecdotes lie at the core of how we understand ourselves and our worlds.
Every anecdote is a fable with a moral, implicit or explicit.   I tell an
anecdote which to me means the cat is conscious; if the cat is conscious,
than other anecdotes must be relevant.  You chime in with your anecdotes.
We are building a consensus for what it means for a cat to be conscious.
With that agreement in hand we now turn to "self-conscious".

Of course, lurking behind all of this is the question of whether agreement
is desirable or whether we all prefer our Holy Individuality.  I hear Dave
saying, "I am happy to play your agreement game, but in the end I prefer my
Holy Individuality."   But in the end, I don't think there is anyway to
play "my" game as a zero-sum game, without any hankering for a common
outcome.

Nick

On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:32 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
wrote:

> I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not
> get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated starting
> point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.
>
> Nick: *"For me;  the heartland of self-consciousness would be an
> awareness on the part of an agent, that  A is one of those  that others
> are.  I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an
> experience."*
>
> I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about
> self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion
> that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously there is
> some marginal overlap)*
>
> Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to
> publicly reveal about them*S*elves.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:
> > It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual
> > interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to
> > self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat
> > clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass
> > burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute
> > before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order
> > consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order
> > consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he
> > decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink
> > out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness
> > for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of
> > interoception.
> >
> > In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only
> > indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a
> > full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid
> > individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable
> > of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies
> > explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.
> >
> > [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual
> > interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet
> > confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe
> > for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the
> > way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across
> > simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about
> > this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which
> > means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.
> >
> > [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto
> > what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in
> > anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay
> > inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic
> > weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or
> > those outside the house.
> >
> > On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> >> All,
> >>
> >> I want to move things along here, but  not sure movement would be.
> Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals
> we are in interaction with are conscious.
> >>
> >> Jochen seemed to disagree.  So Jochen, and you all, what should we do
> about that?   I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to
> resolve it.    Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
> >>
> >> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness.  For me;  the
> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an
> agent, that  A is one of those  that others are.  I am trying to think what
> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
> >
> > --
> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> >
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-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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