[FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

[Nicholas Thompson]

But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question,
right?

n

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends
> how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No
> matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone,
> there's a decent chance your pet will eat you"
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die
>
> But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental
> difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and
> pain, happiness, and misery"
>
> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>
> Jochen,
>
> No bending here.  This IS the thread.
>
> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
> stood on that.
>
>  I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
> propositions are true.
>
> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).*
>
> And now we are working on these two:
>
> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).*
>
> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some
> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version
> of it into this thread.  I will post it asap.  Meantime, I am  looking for
> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious.   People have been
> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for.  Whatever
> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something
> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your
> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is
> references lectures and tomes.  Frankly, I  would prefer to have a cat
> video.
>
> Nick
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me
>> like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
>>
>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
>>
>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show
>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but
>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a
>> place before it gets interesting.
>>
>>
>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
>>
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>,
>> Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>
>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I
>> am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.
>>
>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and
>> Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to
>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses,
>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the
>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world
>> around them.
>>
>> Back to this later when stocked up
>>
>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork
>> it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that
>> person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
>>
>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
>>
>> Nick
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>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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