[FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

[Jochen Fromm]

Dave,I didn't know you have a PhD in anthropology. Apparently you are more qualified to talk about anthropology than I do. I didn't want to say it is easy or not interesting enough. Every science is interesting. The few parts that I am aware of just feel sometimes a bit disappointing for me personally as someone who would like to understand cultural evolution. If I read the books from Robert Boyd and Peter Richerson about cultural evolution I get the impression that they stop right before it gets interesting, before the invention of writing systems, civilizations, religions, and the first city states.Before the invention of writing systems many inventions and ideas were fleeting and could not be passed reliably to next generations. I have the feeling that moments of self-awareness in animals (or children) could be similar: fleeting moments which pass quickly. It is the acquisition of language which allows them to grasp things more clearly and to form durable abstract concepts, just as writing systems allowed the formation of the first civilizations.-J.
-------- Original message --------From: Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> Date: 7/25/24  4:56 PM  (GMT+01:00) To: friam at redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics Jochem,As gently and respectfully as possible, I must correct your view of anthropology. First, there are three primary branches, archeology: the study of cultures before any historic record, cultural: the study of any and every peoples from ancient to contemporary, and physical, the study of evolution of human species. Some also include linguistic, the study of the evolution of language.Very little of cultural anthropology is focused on "primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region." My own Ph.D. in Anthro focused on criticism of the prevailing computer metaphor for human cognition and the role of culture in shaping how people think. The  study of pre-literate societies, including the few that can still be found in remote areas, are premised on using such study to illuminate contemporary and historical societies; e.g., the Yanomami and their bent for violence, to modern gangs. The goal is always to seek insights based on "making the strange familiar and the familiar strange."Culture existed and was essential for human organization and society, tens of thousands of years before the agricultural revolution and the emergence of urbanization. And it was rich and complex and fascinating and quite informative of why people are what they are today.davewOn Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:Nick, Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a place before it gets interesting.If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)J.-------- Original message --------From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>Date: 7/23/24  6:57 PM  (GMT+01:00)To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysicsDavid's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world around them.Back to this later when stocked upIn the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. Nick-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservFridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriamto (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comFRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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