[FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

Thu Jul 25 18:15:01 EDT 2024

I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico.  Chico was
docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching
"home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to
gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too
low for a rider to fit.  If I hadn't jumped off I'd have been hurt. I never
felt that he loved me.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I
> was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor
> horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is
> most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around
> you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting
> birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to their
> human owners.
>
> Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass,
> ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate,
> which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners
> after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their
> paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but because
> they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them. Similarly
> if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not turn
> around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior sometimes
> because they lack the social habits we usually have.
>
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants
>
> Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and horses
> that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them back in
> the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends for a
> limited time: friends who are useful because they provide food and shelter.
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>
> But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question,
> right?
>
> n
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends
>> how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No
>> matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone,
>> there's a decent chance your pet will eat you"
>>
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die
>>
>> But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental
>> difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and
>> pain, happiness, and misery"
>>
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo
>>
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>
>> Jochen,
>>
>> No bending here.  This IS the thread.
>>
>> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
>> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
>> stood on that.
>>
>>  I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
>> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
>> propositions are true.
>>
>> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).*
>>
>> And now we are working on these two:
>>
>> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).*
>>
>> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some
>> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version
>> of it into this thread.  I will post it asap.  Meantime, I am  looking for
>> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
>> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious.   People have been
>> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for.  Whatever
>> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something
>> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your
>> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is
>> references lectures and tomes.  Frankly, I  would prefer to have a cat
>> video.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Nick,
>>>
>>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to
>>> me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
>>>
>>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
>>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
>>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
>>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
>>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
>>>
>>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show
>>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but
>>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
>>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a
>>> place before it gets interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>
>>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that
>>> I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.
>>>
>>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and
>>> Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to
>>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses,
>>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the
>>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world
>>> around them.
>>>
>>> Back to this later when stocked up
>>>
>>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't
>>> fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to
>>> that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
>>>
>>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
>>>
>>> Nick
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
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>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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