[FRIAM] meeting 7/26

Thu Jul 25 19:21:19 EDT 2024

Hi all,
I've been away/busy and have lost track of the schedule. Are we still
meeting in person over the summer?
Thanks,
Jacques

On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico.  Chico was
> docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching
> "home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to
> gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too
> low for a rider to fit.  If I hadn't jumped off I'd have been hurt. I never
> felt that he loved me.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I
>> was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor
>> horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is
>> most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around
>> you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting
>> birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to their
>> human owners.
>>
>> Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass,
>> ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate,
>> which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners
>> after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their
>> paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but because
>> they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them. Similarly
>> if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not turn
>> around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior sometimes
>> because they lack the social habits we usually have.
>>
>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants
>>
>> Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and horses
>> that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them back in
>> the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends for a
>> limited time: friends who are useful because they provide food and shelter.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>
>> But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question,
>> right?
>>
>> n
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends
>>> how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No
>>> matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone,
>>> there's a decent chance your pet will eat you"
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die
>>>
>>> But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental
>>> difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and
>>> pain, happiness, and misery"
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo
>>>
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>
>>> Jochen,
>>>
>>> No bending here.  This IS the thread.
>>>
>>> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
>>> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
>>> stood on that.
>>>
>>>  I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
>>> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
>>> propositions are true.
>>>
>>> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).*
>>>
>>> And now we are working on these two:
>>>
>>> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).*
>>>
>>> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some
>>> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version
>>> of it into this thread.  I will post it asap.  Meantime, I am  looking for
>>> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
>>> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious.   People have been
>>> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for.  Whatever
>>> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something
>>> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your
>>> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is
>>> references lectures and tomes.  Frankly, I  would prefer to have a cat
>>> video.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nick,
>>>>
>>>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to
>>>> me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
>>>>
>>>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
>>>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
>>>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
>>>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
>>>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
>>>>
>>>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show
>>>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but
>>>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
>>>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a
>>>> place before it gets interesting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam at redfish.com>, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
>>>>
>>>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that
>>>> I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.
>>>>
>>>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and
>>>> Glen's on the other,  but I have to go shopping.   I am still hoping to
>>>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses,
>>>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not  only responding to the
>>>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world
>>>> around them.
>>>>
>>>> Back to this later when stocked up
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't
>>>> fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to
>>>> that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
>>>>
>>>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
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