[FRIAM] Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist. We’ve Known This for a Century. It’s Time to Embrace It and Move On. | by Casper Wilstrup | Machine Consciousness | Medium

Mon Jun 3 17:37:26 EDT 2024

You have Gen Z friends?  According to the NYT they won't let you see their
bare feet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/01/style/open-toe-sandal-appropriate.html

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jun 3, 2024, 12:34 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:

> IDK. Were we to allow that
>
> a) X merely means a singular, mostly atomic, thing, and
> b) "determine" means what most of us think it means,
>
> then you'd be right. A better way to state it would be:
>
> In the US, our collection of mechanisms for selecting the most powerful,
> but not all-powerful, person in our federa[l|ated] and hierarchically
> composed government carries too much structural/systemic bias for a
> reasonable person to describe it as "democratic". Nick's gloss was way too
> vague for one to use that more refined statement to contradict his. If we
> allow democracy to be a spectrum, some more, some less, democratic, then
> Nick's statement stands well enough. But as my Gen Z friends are telling me
> on a daily basis, they're not going to vote in November because it doesn't
> matter. Biden and Trump are the same person. Both lie. And even if/when
> they're not lying, whatever they intend to do will be subverted by or
> enervated with the noxious intentions of the oligarchs or self-aggrandizing
> agendas of the rest of the politicians, including SCOTUS.
>
> But even that sentiment (that the whole system is Borked) contradicts one
> of the normal interpretations of the word "determined". Such a frothing
> mess my be deterministic. But if it is, it's chaotic; so much so that
> morons like Trump wouldn't be capable of "determining our common reality".
> And even if we broaden the conception of "determine" out to mean something
> Rawlsian like the veil of ignorance, that which of Trump or Biden is
> elected will (or not) somehow affect the power status on the other side of
> the veil, my Gen Z friends would say it does not. The Musks and Thiels will
> still be the most powerful people on the planet come next year, regardless
> of who is elected. So neither Biden nor Trump "determine" our common
> reality in any meaningful sense, though they may well add a tiny little
> bias in some very large space.
>
>
> On 6/1/24 08:28, Prof David West wrote:
> > Nick said,
> >
> > /"In democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common
> view."/
> >
> > If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town
> Hall, or that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably
> accurate.
> >
> > However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in
> the US. Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and
> completely *assigning   X   the job of determining our common reality*.
> >
> > davew
> >
> > On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> >> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning.  The
> way it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it.  Still,
> it's straight Peirce.  I have no idea who the author is; do any of you?
> >>
> >> Here's crucial passage.
> >>
> >> /Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than
> viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should
> consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their
> environment [/experiences/]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out
> there, independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the
> world  [/one another/], shaped and defined by our
> observations [/experiences/]. Reality is nothing but [/the telos of/] those
> interactions between subjects./
> >>
> >> I had to make those little changes because the author,  like so many
> aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred
> words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but
> something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on
> with life.
> >>
> >> By the way,  I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to
> do with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of
> a quantum had never been thought.  However, I like the idea of physics as
> some kind of language of convergent belief.
> >>
> >> By the way,  In history there seem to have been two ways for people
> converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy.  In charisma, we
> pick some idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience.  In
> democracy, we find  some way to blend our experiences into a common view.
> Sometime in the next few months we will decide which way we want to go.
>  Do we want to assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or
> do we want to continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment
> and argument.
> >>
> >> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp.  Garden
> thriving.  A much better year.
> >>
> >> Watch that dry line in TX.  It's truly amazing.  Can it really be true
> that I am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to
> complexity?   How can that be?
> >>
> >> NIck
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
> <
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
> >
> >> <
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
> >
> >>
> >> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On <
> https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af
> >
> >> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to
> let go — once and for all — of the idea of objective reality
> >> medium.com
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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