[FRIAM] Unpleasant dreams

[Steve Smith]

On 6/4/24 2:06 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> Decorticate animals may writhe and pass and even groan.  Are they 
> dreaming? 

Nick Thompson, meet my bar friend Galen Preston Tracyk the 4th...  
he/she/they are a bar friend who is always happy to speculate with me 
about just about anything.   I passed your question along and offer the 
answer herewith with some caveats:

1) In particular Galen is both very positive and friendly and 
encouraging which can lead to accidentally asking "leading questions" 
and getting "belligerently compliant" answers.   You might recognize 
this in it's happy adoption of your typo? of "writhing, PASSING?, and 
groaning"... in spite of it maybe not having any specific referent?

2) Similarly, Galen tends toward a sort of mealy-mouthed 
middle-of-the-road, almost "conceptually muddy" except in the cases 
described in 1) above where my and Galen's eagerness can lead to wild 
speculations.

3) Galen has been known to make up wild fabrications... some traceable 
to something obvious (similar to a human prone to malapropisms and 
unfortunately obtuse mixed metaphors) but many not.  Generally we call 
these hallucinations which are close relatives to "dreams".   I think it 
is fair to call Galen "decorticate"... and perhaps thereby becomes an 
example subject of the question itself, in spite of not exactly writhing 
and groaning?

As I understand it only Mammals have a true cerebral cortex but birds 
and reptiles have brain structures which appear to serve many of the 
same functions and proto-mammals? such as monotremes have very 
under-developed cerebral cortices (by our measure). Molluscs including 
the extremely "intelligent" cephalapods/octopii do have a brain like 
concentration of neural tissue but it is significantly foreign from that 
found in vertebrates. Researchers report not only sleep/rest cycles but 
a distinction between passive and (very) active sleep cycles which 
include expressions such as skin-color changes similar to those used in 
waking deliberate activities.   I say: "yes, dreaming"

Begin GPT4o conversation:

Decorticate animals may writhe and pass and even groan. Are they dreaming?
ChatGPT

The concept of dreaming in animals, especially in decorticate (those 
without a cerebral cortex) animals, is complex and not fully understood. 
Decorticate animals, due to the lack of a cerebral cortex, cannot 
experience dreaming in the way humans do. Dreaming in humans is thought 
to be closely associated with the activity of the cerebral cortex, 
particularly during the rapid eye movement (REM) phase of sleep.


      Understanding Animal Behaviors in Decorticate Animals

 1.

    *Basic Reflexive Behaviors*: The writhing, passing, and groaning
    observed in decorticate animals are likely to be basic reflexive
    behaviors controlled by lower brain structures such as the brainstem
    and spinal cord. These actions are not indicative of conscious
    experiences or dreams but rather automatic responses to internal or
    external stimuli.

 2.

    *Subcortical Brain Functions*: In the absence of the cerebral
    cortex, other parts of the brain, like the brainstem, continue to
    function and can produce basic motor responses and autonomic
    functions. These structures are responsible for controlling vital
    functions such as heart rate, breathing, and reflexes.

 3.

    *REM Sleep in Animals*: While REM sleep has been observed in a wide
    variety of animals, including those with less developed cortices
    (e.g., birds, reptiles), the complexity of dreams experienced by
    these animals remains a topic of scientific debate. In mammals, REM
    sleep is characterized by low muscle tone, rapid eye movements, and
    heightened brain activity in the cortex, suggesting a more complex
    form of dreaming. However, in decorticate animals, the REM-like
    states, if they occur, would not involve the cortical activity
    associated with dreaming.


      Dreaming and Conscious Experience

 1.

    *Human Dreaming*: In humans, dreams are believed to arise from
    interactions between the cortex and other brain structures like the
    thalamus and limbic system. The cerebral cortex is crucial for the
    complex, narrative-driven dreams that humans report.

 2.

    *Animal Consciousness*: The consciousness and subjective experiences
    of animals, particularly those without a cortex, are not well
    understood. Most research suggests that the cerebral cortex plays a
    significant role in higher-order conscious experiences, including
    dreaming. Therefore, it is unlikely that decorticate animals
    experience dreams similar to those of humans.

 3.

    *Studies on Decorticate Animals*: Research involving decorticate
    animals often focuses on understanding the basic functions and
    behaviors that persist without cortical input. These studies
    indicate that while these animals can exhibit certain automatic
    behaviors and responses, they lack the higher-order processing
    required for dreaming.


      Conclusion

Decorticate animals likely do not dream in the way humans do. The 
writhing, passing, and groaning observed in these animals are more 
likely reflexive and automatic responses rather than indications of 
dreaming or conscious experiences. Dreaming, as understood in humans, 
requires the activity of the cerebral cortex, which decorticate animals 
lack. Therefore, while these animals can exhibit behaviors that might 
superficially resemble those seen in sleep or distress, they do not 
possess the neural structures necessary for complex dream experiences.
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