[FRIAM] new math of complexity
steve smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Thu Jun 13 16:48:33 EDT 2024
Sara Walker:
"We only see emergence because we can't see time."
triggers thoughts of space-time "objects" and the hashlife constructs...
On 6/13/24 1:57 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Meanwhile there are semantic parsing systems like Boxer and MRS/ERG
> that represent natural language in a symbolic way. Evolutionary
> algorithms run on digital computers and large language models that
> encode and interpolate metaphors.
>
> *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *steve smith
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2024 12:42 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
>
> Up to some strong interpretations of QM "physics is deterministic but
> not pre-stateable" is the ground I usually stand on. I don't need to
> invoke non-determinism to believe in open-ended complexity...
> combinatoric (roughly factorial) arithmetic overwhhelms counting,
> additive, multiplicative, even exponential arithmetic?
>
> I am very sympathetic with your (daveW) conceit that evolution can do
> things which engineering generally has not, though I think it is the
> simple amount of (combinatoric) complexity of the "search"
> algorithm? I would claim that our technosphere is significantly
> "evolved" but on top of our "engineering" efforts, though some might
> argue that with the exception of a few exceptionally significant
> "engineers" like Archimedes and Da Vinci, most of our technological
> development before the age of enlightenment or the industrial
> revolution, actually was an evolutionary process (cut and try).
>
> It might be a coincidence but I just happened to dial up the latest
> Lex Fridman interview with Sara Walker (
> https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899 ) who some may know through her
> role as associate director of the ASU-SFI Center for Biosocial Complex
> Systems.
>
> She starts out with simple Materialist/Vitalist contrasts but alludes
> (nearly) to Marcus latest snark: /"//Simulate from first principles:
> https://www.vasp.at/"/
>
> /
>
> /
>
> On 6/13/24 7:11 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>
> Naive, but honest question:
>
> Can a computer program be "complex?" Jochen seems to assert so,
> /"Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added
> makes the system more complex."/ I would say no, it only makes it
> more complicated.
>
> My answer is partially based on the fact that code must execute on
> a deterministic machine and the code itself (at least its compiled
> self) is nothing more than a virtual machine, still a
> deterministic system. Even the source code is a context free
> grammar, so none of the things that make natural language complex
> (context sensitivity, metaphor, interpolation) prevail. Otherwise
> the code would not work?
>
> A secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an extended
> monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve' complex systems
> like a business and the software that supports it,or ULS (
> https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/
> ), i.e., systems that *_cannot_* be "engineered."
>
> davew
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>
> Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we
> mean code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows
> that each piece of code which is added makes the system more
> complex. Therefore we usually try to keep it simple. For
> biological systems it is the DNA code. For cultural systems it
> is the hidden code people do not want to talk about because
> everything related to it is sacred (at least for the group
> which it defines). The knights templar had their own code, the
> order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other
> religious orders and organizations as well.
>
> Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple
> political slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again",
> "Build the wall" and "Lock them up" or simply "Do not
> criticize the supreme leader"). Criminal organizations have
> their code. Ideologies and political parties have their code.
> Behind every complex organism or organization there seems to
> be some form of code or DNA that generates and maintains it.
>
> Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper
> or pairing time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish"
> code has created bodies which have the directive to maintain
> and replicate themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for
> instance at political conventions or at religious
> congregations, then we notice that every time something is
> really happening at a larger scale is that the code becomes
> active. People come together to read or express laws, rules,
> guidelines and policies.
>
> So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code.
> Definitely. Is there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard
> to formulate the expression of such a code in general
> mathematically. For example how can you describe
> mathematically if the speech of a president or party leader or
> priest has bigger consequences or not? It is at least as
> complicated as calculating a path integral in Quantum Field
> Theory.
>
> What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a
> group behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read,
> remembered and expressed.
>
> -J.
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> <mailto:rec at elf.org>
>
> Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)
>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <Friam at redfish.com> <mailto:Friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
>
> Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in
> Quanta?
>
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/
>
> I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for
> emergence, but I haven't had time to read further.
>
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