[FRIAM] nice quote

Sun Oct 6 10:12:31 EDT 2024

Steve,

You called on me to steelman the idea that our problems arise from having
antique emotional systems in a very ugly non antique world.  Glen's stern
judgement looms  over me.

In a general way, the idea that adaptations persist beyond their sell-by
date is absolutely essential to evolution.  How else could a trait be
selected-out if it did not occur where it shouldn't be, so to speak. There
are some interesting examples of such persistence from the research of
Richard Coss on prairie dog defensive adaptations against rattlesnakes.
There is a portion of the West (NE California, I think) where prairie dogs
still live ;but rattlesnakes no longer do.   The prairie dogs have no
resistance to snake venom; however, they still have behavioral adaptations
against snakes, even though the population has not been exposed to them for
100 thousand years.  So, it's certainly possible.   (I hope I haven't
garbled the facts too much here).

But, returning to my strawmanning, notice how specific the example is, of
prairie dogs retaining a particular a particular response to a particular
set of circumstances that they only encounter when the experimenter
presents them.  How much that contrasts with hand waving about lizard
brains and encapsulated emotion modules passed down through the
generations!

Mind you, although you rightly sense my skepticism, I have not ruled the
idea out.  I have only asked that somebody put some feathers on it so I can
see if it flies.

Ever your friend,

Nick

On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 5:49 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> Nick -
>
>     And here I thought *I* was being "pithy", then you call me out on my
> lithp?!  ;^)
>
>     The strawman arguments have started coming out, I wonder if anyone
> will gen up a steelman?
>
> - tinman Steve
>
>
>
> On 10/5/24 11:26 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>
> So in what sense and for what purposes is this pithy aphorism useful?
> What exactly is the pith?
>
> If a metaphor, what is truth in the metaphor, the positive analog.
> Nobody ever said that all metaphors are *entirely* wrong.
>
> and yes, I am being pissy.
>
> n
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 11:04 AM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>> All *Pithy Aphorisms* are wrong, some are useful?
>>
>> On 10/5/24 9:06 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>>
>> my affection for the quote derives from a metaphorical reading, not a
>> literal one. Something akin to Steve's differential rates of evolution. I
>> also would have eschewed 'god like' in favor of 'magical' ala Clarke's
>> dictum about any sufficiently advanced technology.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024, at 8:46 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>
>> I think that this way of talking about emotions precludes careful
>> thought.   First of all, neurologizing emotions is just to hide the pea
>> under the wrong thimble. I don't think paleolithologizig helps much more.
>> Glen is correct that, whatever an emotion is, its inputs  and outputs are
>> ontogenetically and culturally determined.  So, fear, for instance, is a
>> relation between something that we take to be threatening and something
>> that we hope will be avoidance. Inputs and outputs are everything. The rest
>> is  just arousal.
>>
>> N
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 7:01 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>
>> Emotions/Limbic systems evolve at genetic rates, institutions evolve at
>> social/cultural rates (maybe the fastest significant change can
>> happen/resolve is in multiple lifetimes?) but technology is advancing at
>> must faster rates?
>>
>> Or is this wrong(headed) also?
>>
>> On 10/4/24 3:43 PM, glen wrote:
>> > None of that is true, however romantic it might sound. Depending on
>> > how one defines "emotion", that smells the most true. But the
>> > mechanisms of emotion are as coupled to current reality as is every
>> > part of our bodies. To suggest that, say, the Space Force or methods
>> > like quantitative easing are medieval is just nonsense. Technology is
>> > more democratized than it has ever been. Granted, it takes (a lot) of
>> > work to familiarize oneself with something like how GPS works or how
>> > to NOT click on that phishing email. But to suggest that it's
>> > "godlike" says more about the person than it does about the state of
>> > technology.
>> >
>> > On 10/4/24 11:16, Prof David West wrote:
>> >> /"The real problem of humanity is the following: we have Paleolithic
>> >> emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. And it is
>> >> terrifically dangerous."/ Edward O. Wilson.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>> nthompson at clarku.edu
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
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>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
> nthompson at clarku.edu
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
>
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-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
nthompson at clarku.edu
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
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