[FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

[steve smith]

As usual, I am finding a strong hint of a whiff of something profound in 
Glen's references here, but I will probably biff my response/elaboration 
with my heady excitement:

I had to /find/ Vico and refresh myself on Rawls:

    *Giambattista Vico*, an 18th-century philosopher best known for his
    work on the *cyclical nature of history* and the importance of
    *human culture in shaping social laws*. Vico believed that history
    and society are not purely subject to rational, mechanistic laws
    like those found in nature but are instead shaped by human
    creativity, language, and culture. His work emphasizes that *humans
    create their own social realities* and that knowledge of society
    comes from within the context of lived human experience, rather than
    abstract, external analysis.

and

    *John Rawls*, a 20th-century political philosopher known for his
    theory of *justice as fairness*. In rapidly changing social
    contexts, a Rawlsian perspective might emphasize *fairness,
    equality, and social justice*, particularly through the use of the
    *original position* and the *veil of ignorance*. These are thought
    experiments where individuals design societal rules without knowing
    their future position in society, ensuring fairness for all,
    especially the most disadvantaged. Such ideas could shape debates on
    how to manage fairness in dynamic social transformations.

I definitely appreciate the (re)normalization of the more familiar 
contemporary use of "elite" as some kind of slur or dismissal.  And the 
differentiation into "which elites to trust" or perhaps more explicitely 
which *kind* of elites?  And "why am I susceptible to their influence, 
practical or emotional?"

I'd say that Musk (aka elno) present's multiple elite facets, perhaps 
beginning with his "White South African youth during Apartheid while 
reading too much old-fashioned SF and being driven by strong-willed 
parents and subculture" to his serendipitous entry into the growing .COM 
bubble of the late 90s and even more serendipitous jump from that bubble 
to the one forming behind it (Tech 2.0 ?) which seems to have become 
more of a (geologic style) vesicle or even a biological style (where the 
robustness is transitory and utilitarian?).

Since his abject wealth kicked in (late 2010s?) he seems to have begun 
to approach that limit of "absolute wealth ==> absolute corruption".  Is 
the wealthiest jerkball on the planet by definiition the absolutely 
wealthiest?   I forget the rumors about Putin that he is likely 
"abjectly" more wealthy than elno skum hisself?  Maybe by 1 or 2 digit 
factors?  His disruption of at least EVs and (recoverable) Orbital 
Launch (soon to include Moon Landings and Mars Missions?) is another 
type of eliteism which is a combination of tech and risk management?   
His parlay of these dimensions of eliteism into social manipulation with 
Twitter/X and now ffFFing presidential RealPolitik is an entirely new 
level which I would claim rivals (mimics?) Trump's own ability to twist 
(contemporary intersubjective) reality off it's existing axis pretty 
effectively.

The variety of "elites" of interest might range from the likes of 
well-known politicians of any stripe (from Cheneys to Clintons) to well 
known Bureacratic figures (notably Anthony Fauci or Jerome Powell or Ban 
ki-Moon) to social commentarians (Jon Stewart or Michael Moore to Alex 
Jones and Anne Coulter) to (myriad) tech commentators like Hossenfelder 
or Fridman or Rutt or Doctorow or Levin or fictional/proxy movements 
like Antifa/Anonymous/Q ...  I probably missed wide swaths like 
Enviro/Climateers (Thunberg, McKibben) or popFutureFictioneers 
(Stephenson, KSR, King, Atwood, etc.) or PopSci influencers like 
Kurzweil or Chomsky or Wilson or Gould or Dennett or Pollan or Dyson or 
Pinker or Diamond or Gladwell or Harari or or or (ad nauseum)...

And as for Truth (or delusional belief?), the distinction between 
physical reality (blurred as some would like it to be) and 
intersubjective reality is significant (even if an acute illusion as 
simulationists or interfaceinists (Hoffman) or quantum-reality-ists or 
panpsychists (like DaveW and I?) or ...).     The rhetorical world of 
(especially national?) Politics seems to enhance this to the point that 
it sometimes feels as if "nothing is real"  even if most of us most of 
the time don't step in front of busses nor eat wild-foraged fungi we 
haven't identified carefully.

I also identify as an "almost dead privied white man" to perhaps of a 
somewhat different stripe than Glen and I am starting to *fear* that the 
"almost dead" horizon is moving away from me at a pace that hasn't 
overtaken my own aging but might.   Having just had my first major 
bionic implant (excluding a good dozen dental fillings/caps in my youth) 
and experiencing the ultra-high-tech capability of modern surgical and 
diagnostic and imaging and hospitalization Medicine, I am askeered that 
I will, as one of my parent's generation quipped "have all the acute 
problems of previous generations resolved until I find myself 'very old 
and dying of nothing in particular'"  which in fact is how my own 
parents lived roughly 20 years past their expiry dates (as projected in 
their youth to be 70 and 72).

No matter what my Whitelash Male-Rights friends might suggest, I do feel 
much more "privied" than I ever realized as I was experiencing the most 
acute experiences of it (in my testosterone-driven ambitious years).

The biggest privilege seems to be to be "still alive" after one or two 
digit percentage of my cohort no longer is (starting with car crashes in 
our teens followed by military mishaps to drug-related misdeeds, 
followed by any number of early health challenges)...   beyond that I 
feel privileged to live in "a horrible country" (both Left and Right 
tell me this) under "the worst form of government" and with a very bad 
record of first-world disregard for third-world and non-human, non 
mammalian, non-vertebrate, non-animal life and maybe even more 
spectacular "the biosphere itself".   Pretty soon, if ElnoSkum (and 
JiffBozos and others) have their way we will begin the same abuses 
beyond earth orbit (where it is already pretty trashy?)...

I also feel "privied" that I "got in" on the Capitalist and Homeowner 
game early/well enough in life to not worry about access to basics (Bed, 
Bread, and Bath) with a small reserve to do things like buy (well used, 
but not used up) automobiles that can drive across the continent at the 
drop of a credit card and new (or nearly) electronics only one 
generation behind the new and novel and maintain good internet 
connectivity (though orders of magnitude below that which I hear folks 
here claiming the have and/or need?)...   and now that Uncle Joe has 
blessed me with Medicare (after 65) it appears I can trade some of the 
luxury end of these other things for some basic medical care...   and 
some advanced as well (replace a joint or two at-will?).

While some of my public presentation might make me a good target for 
Trump's second line Internment and Ejection camps in 2025, I know I'll 
more likely die of old age (i.e. nothing in particular) or a minor 
mistake in the hyper-cautious, high-tech world of Medicine (or self 
driving Cars, or exploding electronic devices) or bad judgement when 
dealing with my mains power or some jury rigged Solar addition I make to it.

Re: Procreation.   I'm glad to be living in these "interesting times" 
and by extension am glad for my children (yet more privied despite being 
"girlz" ) and grandchildren (probably both end up a-gendered over time) 
to be living in "yet more" interesting times?   My parents were avid ZPG 
fans in the 50s and I carried it forward with my own progeny opting for 
NPG (replacement rate <.5).   I don't know if I infected them with 
enough of my "morbid fascination meme" to be enjoying the ride as we 
precess into  a wild tech-driven vortex of theTechnoSingularity that 
seems now inevitable in their (if not my own) lifespan.  Irony would 
suggest that it is all going truly /HellInAHamburgerBasket/ the 
millisecond after Ray Kurzweil dies...  The "fall line" of an 
exponential curve is wherever you are standing at the moment methinks?

As my peers all seek to flee TrumpAMurrica if he slips-slides-slimes his 
way back into office I am thinking it is my "civic duty" to stay put and 
"fight the good fight" even if it is to be fodder for his cannons (or 
deportment Trebuchets?) or inertial/viscous mass to slow down (stuck to 
the bottom of) the tread of his JackBoots (with inserts to help with the 
bone spurs)...   I missed my chance in 1974 to expatriate myself and as 
tempting as it sounds now, I also find pleasure in being the gum in his 
gears if it comes to that.   Or maybe after the Dems manage to squeeze 
him back into the BrylCream tube he squirted out of I can be the 
fodder/gum for *their* worst instincts?

/Gramble/,

  - Sieve



On 9/30/24 7:29 AM, glen wrote:
> Yeah, but the composition of physical laws up into the composites that 
> make up social laws isn't straightforward. Maybe I could stomach the 
> assumption of transitivity from, say, "biological laws" to "social 
> laws", but not physical laws to social laws. The transitivity fails.
>
> I can't tell where I actually land in the spectrum between Eric and 
> Dave's positions. I really like the idea that those who have their 
> hands inside the goo, inside the machine, close to the metal, are the 
> ones who decide how best to interact with the machine. As Dave once 
> accused, it's a bit Vico-ist. On the other hand, our collective 
> respect for (delusional belief in?) the Truth fades faster each day. 
> The elites are exhibiting faster rates of churn. (E.g. Elno and SpaceX 
> overturning tried and true, "modernist", methods for engineering space 
> machines. E.g. a top-notch Data Science postdoc might cost a 
> university ~$1M/yr, which means they all abandon the academy and go to 
> work for Google or somesuch. Etc.)
>
> And with such a turbulent churn of the elite production system, it's 
> completely reasonable to be confused about which elites to trust - or 
> which side of their mouth to trust. Luckily, I hold Diogenes in high 
> esteem, which allows me to doubt everything ... regardless of EricC 
> and Nick's claim that's impossible. So it's no crisis for this 
> almost-dead privied white man. But the kids? What will they see on the 
> other side of this Rawlsian Veil? I'm so thankful I have no children. 
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