[FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels

Mon Jul 14 15:13:36 EDT 2025

I am also a hypocrite; probably more than most. I would like to zip around
in an electric car and eat vegetarian food, but don't do it. Maybe one of
these days my strength of conviction and/or circumstance will allow me to
do it.

_ Cody Smith _
d00d3rs0n at gmail.com

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 12:12 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> You're totally right — cars really aren’t very permaculture-friendly. But
> I like to think of permaculture more like a dial than a light switch. You
> don’t have to go all-in overnight — even a little bit of “more
> permaculture” is still better than none.
>
> Maybe being into electric cars just makes me feel a bit better about
> myself, even if I’m not exactly saving the planet. And that’s okay. I’ve
> got no interest in judging anyone who still eats meat or enjoys the roar of
> an engine under the hood. Honestly, I still struggle with the meat thing
> too — I don’t like the idea of animals raised just to be eaten, but old
> habits die hard, and sometimes I do still cheat.
>
> And yep, I’m a big time hypocrite. I use coal-powered electricity, I still
> drive a gas car, and in South Africa, the charging network for electric
> cars is pretty much non-existent. So for now, my gas car stays — but one
> day, I’d love to be zipping around in a Tesla.
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 at 19:12, cody dooderson <d00d3rs0n at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I like that definition of permaculture. But I would like to gripe about
>> the earlier conversation about cars.  Cars, electric or fossil powered, are
>> anti-permaculture. They are outside of Nature's flow.  Very few
>> of nature's creatures can move anywhere near as fast as the slowest car.
>> Some animals can go fast but for a very short amount of time, and when they
>> do they have light and efficient bodies. Nature doesn't waste free energy
>> the way we do. Solar cars may get closer to nature's flow but I believe
>> that the fundamentals of what cars are would need to change.
>> That being said, my next door neighbor brags that he can drive his
>> electric car from Albuquerque to Espanola(90 miles) for $0.61. He doesn't
>> know how he does it. It is possible that the fast charger he uses in
>> Espanola buys bulk electricity, and he arrives at a good time.
>>
>> _ Cody Smith _
>> d00d3rs0n at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 11:52 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
>> pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>> Your SolarPunk comment reminded me how much I love permaculture. There’s
>>> a small permaculture farm not far from where I live, and we’ve become
>>> friends with Kath and Ross from Numbi Valley (https://numbivalley.co.za/
>>> ).
>>>
>>> Permaculture and organic farming have a lot in common, but I prefer
>>> permaculture. It’s not just about growing food — it’s more about living in
>>> a way that works with nature, not against it.
>>>
>>> Just to keep things simple, I asked ChatGPT to explain permaculture.
>>> Here's what it said:
>>>
>>> “Permaculture is a way of designing homes, farms, and communities that
>>> follow nature’s patterns. It helps people grow food, save water, and live
>>> in a more balanced and eco-friendly way. The idea is to work with the land,
>>> not fight it — and to create systems that look after people and the planet
>>> for the long run.”
>>>
>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 at 19:07, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have an online shopping cart with SanTan (AZ) Solar to buy a pallet
>>>> of 25 used 250W deprecated PV Panels for $17/ea.  Waiting for their next
>>>> "free shipping" offer.   Or a trip down that way in a vehicle capable...
>>>> turns out the panels are 4" too long to fit behind the seats in my
>>>> ChevyVolt with the hatch closed. (I tried, I suppose I should have measured
>>>> (twice) first?)   I can't find anyone else closer brokering these at-scale
>>>> (Denver?).  wonder when the new arrays Kit Carson Coop put in up north will
>>>> be end-of-life for them.  mean-time-to-replacement is 10yr?
>>>>
>>>> I'll be paving my postage-stamped sized portion of the planet with
>>>> someone else's trash so they can rush forward and do some more planet
>>>> paving?  See Jevon's paradox
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>.  Let the next phase of
>>>> data centers be under 400W-class PV Panel roofs which double as night-time
>>>> solar radiators with a geo-coupled tap-roots deep enough to recharge the
>>>> 50-60F deep earth temp with waste energy from their cubic miles of
>>>> "computronium" (surely someone has trademarked that term?)
>>>>
>>>> In a decade or so when someone has to deal with my "good ideas gone
>>>> bad"  they will likely have to pay much more than $17/panel to properly
>>>> "recycle" them.   The hardened "gorilla glass" and aluminum frames alone if
>>>> properly repurposed (greenhouse/sunroom) glazing should be worth that to
>>>> someone?  Three sided homeless pup-tents with minimal PV power to recharge
>>>> a phone or even power the discarded EV bicycle wheels used to make it into
>>>> a portable shelter?
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile my (now vintage?) PHEV and water well and personal demands
>>>> for electricity from the grid could trickle in through order $400 worth of
>>>> entirely waterproof-shade-making panels?   With Chinese Tarriffs, Inverters
>>>> are getting pricier but a Pi or Arduino with a handful of MOSFETs and
>>>> capacitors and diodes and resistors and *viola* a DIY inverter.  Or just
>>>> swap out or augment the 240V downhole well pump with a 12/24V DC version
>>>> that has the built-in circuitry to handle the variable power from PV?    Or
>>>> so says GPT... I used to be "just smart enough to get in trouble"... now I
>>>> have LLMs encouraging me.   Fortunately it is easier to spin the
>>>> power-turbines with my idle speculations than it is to go out and do these
>>>> projects.  GPT "keeps me off the streets and on the drawing boards".
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe just hand-dig a well and hang a bucket over the side?  Good
>>>> complement to splitting my own firewood?   Put some real-life into the
>>>> "chop wood, carry water" mantra?  Under the shade of deprecated PV panels?
>>>> full circle, like a hermit crab in a tin can.  Ever see one sans-shell?
>>>> Ugly little buggers!
>>>>
>>>> Apocalypto!
>>>>
>>>> Following glen's reference to post apocalyptic biospheric recovery in
>>>> urban environments, I am a fan (when I can find it) of the
>>>> Cyber/Steam/Diesel Punk movement known as SolarPunk
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk>....  very old-hippy
>>>> vibe/bohemian of course.
>>>>
>>>>  I'm not an earthship kinda guy, our local timber and adobe-soil and
>>>> pumice resources don't need other's industrial waste stream (tires and
>>>> glass bottles) sequestered into them for houses... unless of course they
>>>> are YOUR tire and glass bottle castoffs... that I can get behind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/11/25 8:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Installation, tear down, recycling, and re-fabrication all need to be automated.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 7:38 AM
>>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels
>>>>
>>>> A tech bro wet dream, that is. Maybe there's something wrong with me. But what I see when looking at those pictures is something like one of those post-apocalyptic movie scenes where a city is being retaken by the biosphere ... or maybe a hermit crab using a can as its shell.
>>>>
>>>> It's easy to abstract away and think about the humans who manufacture and repair those panel manifolds like so many molecules maintaining a cell or so many glands growing a new shell or exoskeleton. But that analogy's pretty fraught. And it's not merely the life cycles of the panels (and wind mills) that pokes at me. I also wonder about the bioengineering of the various ecosystems, including deserts, and how that will turn out.
>>>>
>>>> None of that's an argument for not paving the earth with panels or continuing to drain the fossil fuel battery. But it's just what I think when I look at those pictures. It just feels so centrally planned ... so ... inorganic. I can't help think about what it will look like within a lifetime of the kids around me:
>>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004225005930
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/11/25 6:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Every so often I need to post an Atlantic article, and that time has arrived again.
>>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/photography/archive/2025/07/photos-china-solar-power-energy/683488/?gift=IwTom6kf_sPDx8WzuZ66aeDqXjixawasB22Cb-q9aVA&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 6:19 AM
>>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels
>>>>
>>>> I don't use Grok. But this reads like it's straight out of an LLM. And since Grok is the ultimate Elno fanboi, that would be my first guess.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/11/25 12:09 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Alright, let’s not beat around the bush — fossil fuels kinda suck. Like, seriously.
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to moving the world toward clean energy, there are two big pieces of the puzzle: how we power everything (electricity), and how we move around (vehicles). Both are super important. There are other parts too, but for today, let’s just chat about cars.
>>>>
>>>> Now, let’s be honest — this whole clean energy thing? It's messy. It’s complicated. There’s no neat, sparkly-clean way to swap out millions of gas-guzzling cars without some bumps and bruises along the way. And yeah, some parts of the process can look... well, not great.
>>>>
>>>> I actually want people to point out the flaws. Go for it. It’s good to talk about the not-so-pretty stuff too. As much as I'd love to only focus on the shiny positives (it’s my natural instinct!), I get that the whole picture matters.
>>>>
>>>> Still, if we sat down with a pros and cons list and gave it a fair shot, I think we'd see that Elon Musk has done the planet a pretty big favor in pushing us away from combustion engines and toward electric ones.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you can come up with a solid list of “negatives” — and honestly, I welcome it. I might even be completely wrong about all this. And you know what? That’s okay. Lucky for me (and the rest of the planet), if I am wrong, it’s just my opinion. No harm done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --.
>>>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --.
>>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. /
>> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. /
> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20250714/f108a7e5/attachment.html>