[FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels

Mon Jul 14 15:24:50 EDT 2025

Too many roads! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of cody dooderson
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2025 12:14 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels

I am also a hypocrite; probably more than most. I would like to zip around in an electric car and eat vegetarian food, but don't do it. Maybe one of these days my strength of conviction and/or circumstance will allow me to do it. 

_ Cody Smith _

d00d3rs0n at gmail.com <mailto:d00d3rs0n at gmail.com> 

On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 12:12 PM Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za <mailto:pieters at randcontrols.co.za> > wrote:

You're totally right — cars really aren’t very permaculture-friendly. But I like to think of permaculture more like a dial than a light switch. You don’t have to go all-in overnight — even a little bit of “more permaculture” is still better than none.

Maybe being into electric cars just makes me feel a bit better about myself, even if I’m not exactly saving the planet. And that’s okay. I’ve got no interest in judging anyone who still eats meat or enjoys the roar of an engine under the hood. Honestly, I still struggle with the meat thing too — I don’t like the idea of animals raised just to be eaten, but old habits die hard, and sometimes I do still cheat.

And yep, I’m a big time hypocrite. I use coal-powered electricity, I still drive a gas car, and in South Africa, the charging network for electric cars is pretty much non-existent. So for now, my gas car stays — but one day, I’d love to be zipping around in a Tesla.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 at 19:12, cody dooderson <d00d3rs0n at gmail.com <mailto:d00d3rs0n at gmail.com> > wrote:

I like that definition of permaculture. But I would like to gripe about the earlier conversation about cars.  Cars, electric or fossil powered, are anti-permaculture. They are outside of Nature's flow.  Very few of nature's creatures can move anywhere near as fast as the slowest car. Some animals can go fast but for a very short amount of time, and when they do they have light and efficient bodies. Nature doesn't waste free energy the way we do. Solar cars may get closer to nature's flow but I believe that the fundamentals of what cars are would need to change. 

That being said, my next door neighbor brags that he can drive his electric car from Albuquerque to Espanola(90 miles) for $0.61. He doesn't know how he does it. It is possible that the fast charger he uses in Espanola buys bulk electricity, and he arrives at a good time. 

_ Cody Smith _

d00d3rs0n at gmail.com <mailto:d00d3rs0n at gmail.com> 

On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 11:52 AM Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za <mailto:pieters at randcontrols.co.za> > wrote:

Your SolarPunk comment reminded me how much I love permaculture. There’s a small permaculture farm not far from where I live, and we’ve become friends with Kath and Ross from Numbi Valley (https://numbivalley.co.za/).

Permaculture and organic farming have a lot in common, but I prefer permaculture. It’s not just about growing food — it’s more about living in a way that works with nature, not against it.

Just to keep things simple, I asked ChatGPT to explain permaculture. Here's what it said:

“Permaculture is a way of designing homes, farms, and communities that follow nature’s patterns. It helps people grow food, save water, and live in a more balanced and eco-friendly way. The idea is to work with the land, not fight it — and to create systems that look after people and the planet for the long run.”

On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 at 19:07, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com> > wrote:

I have an online shopping cart with SanTan (AZ) Solar to buy a pallet of 25 used 250W deprecated PV Panels for $17/ea.  Waiting for their next "free shipping" offer.   Or a trip down that way in a vehicle capable... turns out the panels are 4" too long to fit behind the seats in my ChevyVolt with the hatch closed. (I tried, I suppose I should have measured (twice) first?)   I can't find anyone else closer brokering these at-scale (Denver?).  wonder when the new arrays Kit Carson Coop put in up north will be end-of-life for them.  mean-time-to-replacement is 10yr?

I'll be paving my postage-stamped sized portion of the planet with someone else's trash so they can rush forward and do some more planet paving?  See Jevon's paradox <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox> .  Let the next phase of data centers be under 400W-class PV Panel roofs which double as night-time solar radiators with a geo-coupled tap-roots deep enough to recharge the 50-60F deep earth temp with waste energy from their cubic miles of "computronium" (surely someone has trademarked that term?)

In a decade or so when someone has to deal with my "good ideas gone bad"  they will likely have to pay much more than $17/panel to properly "recycle" them.   The hardened "gorilla glass" and aluminum frames alone if properly repurposed (greenhouse/sunroom) glazing should be worth that to someone?  Three sided homeless pup-tents with minimal PV power to recharge a phone or even power the discarded EV bicycle wheels used to make it into a portable shelter? 

Meanwhile my (now vintage?) PHEV and water well and personal demands for electricity from the grid could trickle in through order $400 worth of entirely waterproof-shade-making panels?   With Chinese Tarriffs, Inverters are getting pricier but a Pi or Arduino with a handful of MOSFETs and capacitors and diodes and resistors and *viola* a DIY inverter.  Or just swap out or augment the 240V downhole well pump with a 12/24V DC version that has the built-in circuitry to handle the variable power from PV?    Or so says GPT... I used to be "just smart enough to get in trouble"... now I have LLMs encouraging me.   Fortunately it is easier to spin the power-turbines with my idle speculations than it is to go out and do these projects.  GPT "keeps me off the streets and on the drawing boards".

Or maybe just hand-dig a well and hang a bucket over the side?  Good complement to splitting my own firewood?   Put some real-life into the "chop wood, carry water" mantra?  Under the shade of deprecated PV panels?  full circle, like a hermit crab in a tin can.  Ever see one sans-shell?  Ugly little buggers!

Apocalypto!

Following glen's reference to post apocalyptic biospheric recovery in urban environments, I am a fan (when I can find it) of the Cyber/Steam/Diesel Punk movement known as SolarPunk <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk> ....  very old-hippy vibe/bohemian of course. 

 I'm not an earthship kinda guy, our local timber and adobe-soil and pumice resources don't need other's industrial waste stream (tires and glass bottles) sequestered into them for houses... unless of course they are YOUR tire and glass bottle castoffs... that I can get behind.

On 7/11/25 8:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Installation, tear down, recycling, and re-fabrication all need to be automated.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam  <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 7:38 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels

A tech bro wet dream, that is. Maybe there's something wrong with me. But what I see when looking at those pictures is something like one of those post-apocalyptic movie scenes where a city is being retaken by the biosphere ... or maybe a hermit crab using a can as its shell.

It's easy to abstract away and think about the humans who manufacture and repair those panel manifolds like so many molecules maintaining a cell or so many glands growing a new shell or exoskeleton. But that analogy's pretty fraught. And it's not merely the life cycles of the panels (and wind mills) that pokes at me. I also wonder about the bioengineering of the various ecosystems, including deserts, and how that will turn out.

None of that's an argument for not paving the earth with panels or continuing to drain the fossil fuel battery. But it's just what I think when I look at those pictures. It just feels so centrally planned ... so ... inorganic. I can't help think about what it will look like within a lifetime of the kids around me:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004225005930

On 7/11/25 6:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Every so often I need to post an Atlantic article, and that time has arrived again.

https://www.theatlantic.com/photography/archive/2025/07/photos-china-solar-power-energy/683488/?gift=IwTom6kf_sPDx8WzuZ66aeDqXjixawasB22Cb-q9aVA <https://www.theatlantic.com/photography/archive/2025/07/photos-china-solar-power-energy/683488/?gift=IwTom6kf_sPDx8WzuZ66aeDqXjixawasB22Cb-q9aVA&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share> &utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam  <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 6:19 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels

I don't use Grok. But this reads like it's straight out of an LLM. And since Grok is the ultimate Elno fanboi, that would be my first guess.

On 7/11/25 12:09 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

Alright, let’s not beat around the bush — fossil fuels kinda suck. Like, seriously.

When it comes to moving the world toward clean energy, there are two big pieces of the puzzle: how we power everything (electricity), and how we move around (vehicles). Both are super important. There are other parts too, but for today, let’s just chat about cars.

Now, let’s be honest — this whole clean energy thing? It's messy. It’s complicated. There’s no neat, sparkly-clean way to swap out millions of gas-guzzling cars without some bumps and bruises along the way. And yeah, some parts of the process can look... well, not great.

I actually want people to point out the flaws. Go for it. It’s good to talk about the not-so-pretty stuff too. As much as I'd love to only focus on the shiny positives (it’s my natural instinct!), I get that the whole picture matters.

Still, if we sat down with a pros and cons list and gave it a fair shot, I think we'd see that Elon Musk has done the planet a pretty big favor in pushing us away from combustion engines and toward electric ones.

Now, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you can come up with a solid list of “negatives” — and honestly, I welcome it. I might even be completely wrong about all this. And you know what? That’s okay. Lucky for me (and the rest of the planet), if I am wrong, it’s just my opinion. No harm done.

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