[FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?

Thu Jun 12 03:25:53 EDT 2025

Thanks, DaveW — I’ll definitely get hold of the book; it looks fascinating!

I’m genuinely excited about what future scientific discoveries might reveal
in this area. I (weakly) doubt that our current AI frameworks will crack
building a human comparable AI, but who knows? Perhaps new paradigms will
emerge, and someone will build a Turing-machine-type mind that eventually
surpasses the human mind — and maybe even helps us answer these deep
questions. I'd love to see that happen, though I remain a bit skeptical.
Maybe it will require a quantum computer, or something else entirely beyond
what we can currently imagine.

I have a strong faith in science — but not always in scientists’ opinions.
After all, one of the top physicists of the 19th century, Albert Michelson,
famously declared just before the advent of quantum mechanics: “There is
nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and
more precise measurement.” History had other plans.

On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 20:55, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> There are a number of pretty interesting, quasi-paradoxes, surrounding
> non-self and concepts like will, choice, and action that, at minimum, imply
> a "selfy-thing."
>
> My very first course in Buddhist philosophy (fall 1968 at Macalester
> College with Professor David White) raised the question: "if there is no
> self, what reincarnates?" The answer was involved enough it would have been
> worthy of a graduate seminar all by itself. Same thing for the "complex
> web" you mention but not the "conditioned responses." Something more akin
> to patterns arising from localized strange attractors within the context of
> the Self (Atman).
>
> If you want to explore the concepts from your MOOC further, I highly
> recommend Alex Comfort's book, *Reality and Empathy. *[Yes, it is the
> same Alex Comfort who wrote *The Joy of Sex*.]
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025, at 10:57 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> Many moons ago, I worked through a fascinating MOOC by Robert Wright
> titled *Buddhism and Modern Psychology.* The course promo included the
> following:
>
> *One of the core principles of Buddhism is the concept of ‘non-self.’ This
> means that there is no permanent, unchanging self that exists independently
> of the constantly changing physical and mental processes that make up our
> experience. This idea can be challenging to grasp, but it is a fundamental
> aspect of the Buddhist worldview.*
>
> The course takes an agnostic stance on the spiritual aspects of Buddhism
> and instead focuses on how Buddhist practices align with insights from
> modern psychology. I found it all deeply intriguing.
>
> Now, if I may share my "expert" opinion (imagine someone saying: "Pieter
> is such a humble person — he has so much to be humble about")… While
> Buddhism denies a permanent self, it still makes space for will and choice
> — not as free-floating expressions of some fixed essence, but as part of a
> complex web of conditioned processes.
>
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 15:26, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>
> A minor curiosity,
>
> If there is "free will" it is essential that there is a "willer;" that
> which wills freely. What is it?
>
> Non-individuated consciousness/intelligence would not seem to be
> sufficient; only an "I" will do.
>
> But, to a [Vedist | Taoist | Buddhist | Alchemist | ...] there is not such
> thing as an "I," only the illusion of one. Similarly a material-monist
> (Marcus?) or a behavior-monist (Nick!) an "I" is nothing in itself, merely
> an epiphenomenon, neither a metaphysical nor ontological thing.
>
> It would seem that any argument, pro/con, for free will is dependent on a
> convincing argument for the existence of an "I" whether embodied in silicon
> or flesh.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, at 8:09 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> I have two hats. When I wear Hat #1, I don't think humans have free will..
>
> In this view, our minds are what happen when lots of physical,
> deterministic processes take place—not just in the brain, but possibly in
> all the cells of the body. There might be a bit of quantum randomness
> involved, but nothing too wild—we can probably understand and model it
> pretty well. So, from this perspective, free will doesn’t really exist.
> We’re following the rules of physics, whether we like it or not.
>
> I don’t think current AI systems are yet capable of reproducing something
> like the human mind, but in theory, I believe it’s possible. Maybe it’ll
> happen soon. Maybe it’ll take much longer. But the idea itself is not
> far-fetched. And even if we don’t get full human-like AI anytime soon, the
> progress I expect from today’s "narrow" AI will still be enormous. Within a
> decade or two, I think we’ll see major advances and a kind of radical
> abundance in goods and services.
>
> Then I switch to Hat #2.
>
> This hat still believes in science, but it questions whether today’s
> scientific model of reality is enough to fully explain the human mind.
>
> I asked Grok about Roger Penrose’s view on free will. The response was:
>
> “Roger Penrose, a renowned physicist and philosopher, believes free will
> is a real phenomenon, rooted in the complex interplay of quantum mechanics
> and consciousness. His ideas challenge traditional views, suggesting our
> choices may stem from non-computable processes in the brain, beyond simple
> cause-and-effect. While controversial, his work offers a fascinating
> perspective on how we make decisions.”
>
> (Full version here: https://x.com/i/grok/share/aqBDuYD1GxnPOaUSu02UcP4uB)
>
> To me, this isn’t mysticism—it’s serious, thoughtful science. And if we
> want to test these ideas, Seth Lloyd’s “Turing test for free will” is
> another example of proper science being used to explore difficult questions.
>
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 01:19, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/10/25 3:26 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> This conversation is well into bad faith now.  I’m done.
>
> Let me dig into my reserves of "good faith" for those who might not have
> already exercised their free will by choosing to exit the conversation
> (ok... THAT was bad faith also! )
>
> FWIW, the *only* thing I have to offer in opposition to the
> monistic/deterministic/no-free-will view is my own "experience" which is
> *at best* proof (to me) by example... it is not hard for me to grant that
> other "beings like me" have the same experience of "free will" (and other
> *qualia*).
>
> My mystical/abstraction-oriented/woo self tends to *grow* the scope of
> "beings like me" and even without the benefit of various organic alkaloids
> (et al) that others here might use to get into that mood?   I'm pretty open
> to granting AI/ML models something *like* (my) consciousness, and by
> *extension* something *like* (my) free will...   while *simultaneously*
> (read Lewis Carrol's Red Queen character) believing that determinism IS.
>
> My snarky flipness was maybe a reflection of the inner tension I feel in
> this discussion... that I can take either or both sides pretty effectively
> and don't find the arguments of one extrema very compelling to my other
> extrema (and vice-versa).   The epitome of ambi-valence?
>
> Maybe there is useful meta-argument which helps resolve that?  Maybe
> everyone else is able to get a good grip on one extrema or the other and
> recognize the opposite one acutely absurd?
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On
> Behalf Of *steve smith
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 10, 2025 2:24 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever
> wiring?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/10/25 9:44 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Consider a robot with sensors roughly comparable to humans.
>
> The robot has access to all the energy it wants.  It has a large memory
> and generous computing resources.   It has executive processes with onboard
> state-of-the-art LLMs to access vast information and can run a wide variety
> of appropriate programs to plan its next actions.  It can use the LLMs to
> write new programs.  It can tune or fine-tune the LLMs constantly from new
> data.   It remembers its actions and their consequences.   It has video and
> audio recordings of every moment.  It has time series data of its sensors
> since it was activated.   Because of its general self-tuning ability, any
> guidance from its authors (like for the LLM) can be overridden.    It has
> americium-241 onboard hardware random number generator that drives its LLM
> sampling and any other stochastic algorithm.
>
>
>
> Does this robot have free will?  Why or why not?
>
> Probably not unless it's brain is *positronic*.
>
> For a *proof by anecdote*, read the corpus of Asimov's work.  ;/
>
> Then go release an Orca into the wild and holler "Free Willy" at the top
> of your lungs.  If you survive being arrested and convicted for your
> declaration of putative "public exposure", then note that the entire global
> population are taking up the practice of head-butting sailboats....   free
> will much?
>
> The perils of Free Will(y)?
>
>
>
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