[FRIAM] Entropy RE-redux
steve smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Tue Jun 17 23:38:08 EDT 2025
my guess is that Nick (like many of us) is just trying to get a handle
on some Thermodynamic concepts intuitively, by making up his own simple
examples and building on them? A little world-building/exploration by
some measure?
Entropy is perhaps the most arcane (but not occult) of thermodynamic
concepts and in the top handful in all of physics? Pressure,
Temperature, and Volume are roughly directly apprehensible with the
likes of Energy, Work, Ergodicity, Equilibrium, Reversibility taking a
little more thought, and Entropy, Enthalpy, and the wycked mother of
them all the Partition Function (Z) really difficult to think about in
their own terms.
Entropy blends macroscopic state functions with microscopic statistical
behaviors. It resists single-intuition anchoring: it's about disorder,
information, irreversibility, energy quality, and more.
Over decades, starting with a BS in Physics, I have been through the
combinatorics of iso baric/choric/thermal (PVT)systems and all of their
combinations, designed to implement the suite of common cycles (rankine,
stirling, otto, diesel, etc) at different times and while that helped to
carve out an intuition for the other more abstract quantities (like
Entropy). I don't know I've ever been lead directly to those, instead
having to absorb (much of?) the full suite of examples to begin to
appreciate the arcane (albeit not quite occult) quantities?
Ruth and Bruce would have a few canned examples to work through which is
sometimes a good way to get there, but sometimes there is nothing more
satisfying than making up your own narratives and exploring their
implications, providing your world-building is consistent and coherent.
George is a very patient copilot in such adventures, if not always the
perfect navigator?
I'm probably just stirring (increasing the entropy of this thread)?
On 6/17/25 2:47 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I supplied another prompt to Géminis which i thought would yield an
> illuminating response:
>
> What is isentropic expansion?
>
> Isentropic expansion is a thermodynamic process where a substance
> (usually a gas) expands without any change in its entropy. This is an
> idealized process, meaning it assumes two key conditions:
> * Adiabatic: No heat is transferred into or out of the system.
> * Reversible: There are no irreversible losses due to factors like
> friction, turbulence, or unrestrained expansion.
> Because entropy is a measure of disorder or randomness in a system, a
> constant entropy implies that the process is as efficient as possible,
> with no energy "lost" or converted into less useful forms.
> Key characteristics of isentropic expansion:
> * Constant entropy (\Delta S = 0): This is the defining characteristic.
> * No heat transfer (\text{Q} = 0): Since the process is adiabatic.
> * Decrease in temperature: As the substance expands and does work, its
> internal energy decreases, leading to a drop in temperature. This is
> in contrast to an isothermal expansion where heat would be added to
> maintain constant temperature.
> * Decrease in pressure: As the volume increases and temperature drops,
> the pressure of the substance also decreases.
> Why is it important?
> Isentropic expansion is a crucial concept in thermodynamics and
> engineering for several reasons:
> * Idealized model: It serves as a theoretical benchmark against which
> real-world processes can be compared. No real process is perfectly
> isentropic, but understanding this ideal helps engineers evaluate how
> efficiently actual systems operate.
> * Efficiency calculations: The concept of isentropic efficiency is
> used to measure how closely an actual expansion process (like in a
> turbine) approaches the ideal isentropic case. This helps in designing
> more efficient engines and power systems.
> * Design and analysis: It's fundamental to the design and analysis of
> various engineering systems, including:
> * Turbines: In gas and steam turbines, hot, high-pressure fluids
> expand to produce work. Isentropic expansion helps determine the
> maximum work output.
> * Nozzles: In applications like rocket propulsion and jet engines,
> nozzles are designed to accelerate fluids to high velocities through
> isentropic expansion.
> * Internal combustion engines: The expansion (power) stroke in
> these engines is often approximated as an isentropic process for analysis.
> * Refrigeration cycles: Isentropic expansion plays a role in these
> cycles as well.
> In essence, isentropic expansion represents the most efficient
> possible expansion of a fluid, and while it's an idealization, it
> provides a powerful tool for understanding, analyzing, and optimizing
> energy conversion systems.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2025, 2:44 PM Santafe <desmith at santafe.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> Yes; I can report how things appear to me. Feel free to growl
> that they are not correct. I will stay away from making claims
> about what things, or you, “are”. I have no access to that.
>
> What I see is you sort-of-demanding that the terms that happen to
> interest you will be the terms in which natural phenomena admit an
> understanding. So you give more and more elaborate descriptions
> of experiments and ask about outcomes, but you leave out 2/3 of
> the specification that an actual outcome would depend on, as
> somebody pointed out in this latest case about the tapping. This
> is why Marcus’s advocacy of putting things into an algorithm is so
> central. If a machine generates an algorithm, it might do so by
> simply making guesses about all the things you didn’t actually
> tell it, but at least, for the algorithm to exist, we will have an
> explicit record of what its assumptions were.
>
> Your comments about category errors upped the ante on that; I see
> them as a premise that the terms you choose going in, and the
> rules of argument you learned in parochial school, will grant you
> access through thinking to how nature really is. That’s why I
> called you a metaphysician before (and at which you growled).
>
> What I saw was people repeatedly telling you that, when the part
> of humanity that works in this area uses “the entropy” referring
> to equilibrium, they have the property of “being constructed to
> mean a state function” entailed in that term, and then you
> continued to make assertion-statements that entropy is not a
> function determinable by whatever one means by “a state”. One
> response to such a situation might be to ask “Hmm; I wonder
> what-all they mean when they say `a state’; they might not be
> telling me enough for me to follow them.” Or, one could conclude
> that they are making category errors, and that your rules of
> argument from parochial school tell you what those errors are.
> Choosing to do the latter, to me, is as close as one can get in
> real life, to the pupil for whom the master pours tea, and
> continues to pour after the cup is full. The student asks why do
> you keep pouring when the cup is full? etc. The standard story.
>
> It’s interesting: I would be the last one to criticize anybody for
> trying to understand something in other terms that occur to him,
> than those that a field conventionally uses. I very much like
> that mode of working, and it is mostly what I do — not through any
> greatness of soul; just because I can’t follow other people, so I
> grab on where I can from my own proclivities. Mostly I end up in
> a mess that way, too. So the difference is all in what you do
> when you hit a snag, and the people around you seem to be able to
> coordinate with each other enough to be getting something done.
> It’s evidence, to at least be reflected upon.
>
> Your statement "I’ve gone back to feeling that I don’t even know
> enough to ask a question.” struck me as a glimmering of the
> recognition that we don’t get to dictate to nature the terms in
> which phenomena become understandable. Those terms are something
> we have to figure out along the way, along with the rules of
> argument that apply to them. Glen has written in many posts (a
> burst of them a year or two ago) about the role of embedded
> practice in this “coming to terms”. Of course, we can always
> dictate. (We used to say “It’s a free country”; though that seems
> more awkward now.) But wherever that dictation gets you, it won’t
> be understanding.
>
> Anyway. DaveW can tell you that I don’t understand anything about
> Zen or about any contemplative tradition. (And if he can’t tell
> you that, I can find others who will. It is a *secret* in the
> closed hand!) But I hear these things that come out of the
> various literatures, and they often seem to me like delightful
> distillations of how people are; just the kind of things you would
> expect cultures to keep and to transmit over millennia, through
> innumerable hands, because they bring the world into better focus.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Jun 18, 2025, at 1:01, Nicholas Thompson
>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I did not understand, and wanted to understand, your zen
>> comment. I am reluctant to ask you to punch the tar baby again .
>> You are, of course, under no obligation to cure my madness or
>> buffer my aging. But given the coincidence between that comment
>> and DaveW's, who often presses Zen on me, I thought you might be
>> pointing at something there I should pay close attention to.
>>
>> It will be ok. You was born and bred in a briar patch.
>>
>> Nick
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Santafe
>> <desmith at santafe.edu>
>> *Sent:*Monday, June 16, 2025 11:30 PM
>> *To:*The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] Entropy RE-redux
>> Zen moment Nick:
>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2025, at 12:00, Nicholas Thompson
>>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve gone back to feeling that I don’t even know enough to ask
>>> a question.
>>
>> Just there for an instant, the teacup dipped below full. btw.:
>> this sentence is a wonderful encapsulation of the difference
>> between the metaphysician and the scientist. Welcome back.
>>
>> Frank’s language below is good. It’s work to understand it, of
>> course, but the crucial starting point is that it admits an
>> understanding because there is a consistent thing being asserted.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>>
>>> You've probably done this. Nick.
>>>
>>> Yes, entropy (S) is a state variable in thermodynamics.
>>> Here's what that means:
>>> * Definition of a State Variable: A state variable (or state
>>> function) is a property of a thermodynamic system that depends
>>> only on the current state of the system, not on the path or
>>> process taken to reach that state. If a system is in a
>>> particular equilibrium state, its state variables will have
>>> specific, unique values.
>>> * Why Entropy is a State Variable:
>>> * Path Independence: The change in entropy between two states
>>> is the same regardless of the reversible or irreversible path
>>> taken to go from the initial state to the final state.
>>> * Unique Value for a Given State: For any given equilibrium
>>> state of a system (defined by other state variables like
>>> temperature, pressure, and volume), there is a unique value of
>>> entropy.
>>> * Mathematical Property: Mathematically, a quantity is a
>>> state variable if its differential is an exact differential,
>>> meaning that its integral over a closed path is zero. This is
>>> true for entropy.
>>> * Contrast with Path Variables: In contrast, quantities like
>>> heat (Q) and work (W) are not state variables. The amount of
>>> heat transferred or work done depends entirely on the specific
>>> path followed during a process.
>>> In summary, entropy is a fundamental property that characterizes
>>> the state of a thermodynamic system and is independent of its
>>> history.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 9:27 AM Nicholas Thompson
>>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Same setup as before. Cylinder with two plungers and a
>>> peggable slider at dead center. Lets fill our compartments
>>> with bbs of the same volume. Unpeg the divider. Now
>>> lets tap on the two opposite plungers with a series of blows
>>> of the same average magnitude but different but different
>>> positive skew in the distribution of magnitudes. Will the
>>> divider move?
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
>>> nthompson at clarku.edu
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
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