[FRIAM] Entropy RE-redux
steve smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Wed Jun 18 13:35:16 EDT 2025
EricS -
Excellent (albeit dense and elaborate)... It is good to have someone
whose credentials are as high (on the topic at hand) acknowledge your
own difficult ramp up as well as some self-aware analysis of just what
made/makes it so damn hard. I hope this helps Nick (and others)
appreciate that he is not alone in his struggles to get "traction" in
this viscous soup of complex and abstract concepts.
I learned my T&S in an independent study with a crusty professor who I
thought didn't like me. He apparently didn't *not* like me but rather
"wanted more for me" and decided that he could help me through my muzzy
methodologies and unleash my (apparently) good intuition with some
mano-a-mano. It worked well (though, I still have my muzzy
methodologies). We met once a week for an hour to discuss my readings.
It was the best and most effective "class" I'd ever had (in
math/science). For his part, he was patient and positive (something he
rarely showed in lecture) and for mine, I was disciplined in my reading
and in the formulation of my questions to him when we met. As I
remember it, he credited me (us) in making it much further through the
text than would have been required for credit. I needed the same in
the Group Theory I was trying to acquire at the time but alas I was left
to trying to get it from books without guidance.
I suspect it was my dual major in Math which allowed me to be as ready
as I was and perhaps why he offered me the opportunity. While we were a
university there was not a graduate program in Physics (but one in Math
and one in Chemistry adjacent) and I think many of the Physics
professors were frustrated to not be able to work with grad students in
their subject... I had to take the only Quantum Physics class from a
Chemistry professor, teaching to graduate Chemistry students with a
*very* different style and intention than I sought (and enjoyed) from my
(frustrated?) Physics professors. I got the grade in spite of not
developing much intuition in the shadow of the overbearing mechanics of
it all.
In closing, I will argue (without conviction but nevertheless with
confidence) that LLMs can/do do something *more* than what you declare:
"the language bots are handing back is the only thing it can be; a
regurgitation of the canons of the textbooks".
My experience (and hypothesis) is that the "more" they hand back is in
the well-selected combinatorial interpolation (and some extrapolation)
they can do?
I think *this* is what we humans do collectively as well, we each study
and read hundreds of other precursor thinkers/writers and then maybe
spend years trying to regurgitate that to students in a digestible form,
and along the way, we develop our intuition about which of the
interpolations/extrapolations/combinatorics that come up in that work
might be useful/interesting/valid?
maybe.
- Steve
> Yeah;
>
> I remember the first thermodynamics class I had. I hated it. It all
> seemed like total voodoo (apologies, Dave, I don’t mean the good kind;
> this is a colloquialism), and I was convinced I would never even be
> able to get through it; totally give up understanding it.
>
> Then there was a statistical mechanics class that helped somewhat, and
> with a lot of slogging (like a form of hazing), I could get through
> calculations and sometimes get the right answer. Still, there didn’t
> seem to be much I would have called (then) or would call (now)
> “understanding”.
>
> At some point, by very roundabout concerns, involving stuff that
> overbuilds the math very heavily compared to what one needs in
> equilibrium thermo, and getting even more lost in that overhead, I
> finally got to the point of realizing that the main ideas were never
> actually a problem. Then I got really mad at the way this subject is
> taught. It never needed to be hard, not for stupid undergrad me, nor
> for still-stupid but determined and head-bashing graduate me, or for
> the (still not any smarter, but I had time at SFI) ten years of going
> in circles with things I could have understood much earlier with a bit
> more careful presentation.
>
> And the stuff the language bots are handing back is the only thing it
> can be; a regurgitation of the canons of the textbooks. So
> absolutely, it sounds no better than listening to mystics, who mainly
> seem to want to tell you they have the greatest thing in the world but
> they aren’t going to tell you what it is (and _you’ll_ never
> understand; thats for sure!).
>
> My own belief is that the way around this is not to retrace the first
> empirical way we hit these surprises, but rather to inherit the 100
> years of related thought that has gone on since then, and take
> advantage of the much simpler routes (because they are conceptually
> orderly) made available at various points in that other work. We
> have to have the anchoring in empirics, of course. But that anchoring
> is not what ties down the concept structure that makes the subject
> sensible. The difference between good and bad presentation of the
> empirics is that at least the good kind has a comprehensible unpacking.
>
> Of course, I am not a pedagog. And what I want from it (not getting
> lost) is very different from what most educators are serving (getting
> very, very fast at turning the crank so you can do your engineering
> job, which now is also most of what gets done in physics.) So the
> things I like would probably be completely ineffective for what the
> customers of the business of education really want. Happily, I am not
> in charge of anything, so the world can continue as it was.
>
> But a lot of it comes down to forcing people to slow down and _say
> what they are doing_: the kind of thing everybody finds tedious and
> nobody has any patience for.
>
> 0. Is this experiencing nature, or is it setting out terms and rules
> in formalism? (formalism) Deciding when the formalism has a good
> binding to nature is like it generally is in science.
> 1. What kind of systems are you modeling? Those in which the way you
> set up the system fixes all of its degrees of freedom (remember, in
> our formalism!), or one in which some of the degrees of freedom are
> not fixed? The former is Newtonian clockworks, the latter is thermo.
> 2. What kinds of question will you be asking? THIS ONE IS THE KEY
> THAT EVERYBODY INADEQUATELY EMPHASIZES: I will be asking question that
> must be answered from _distributions_. Why is that so? Why are the
> phenomena you are studying such that when you formalize them, the
> questions you will ask are all answered from distributions? (and we
> can say, etc.) The key point that, when an equilibrium thermo person
> says “state”, that is a tag referring to some kind of distribution,
> focuses the attention where it needs to be, on how many kinds of
> distributions there are, and what determines them.
> 3. How do the kinds of distributions that will answer your questions
> relate to the way you set up the system? Answering this with some
> care gets at the difference between steady and unsteady distributions,
> those that require many boundary-condition variables to prepare and
> those that require fewer, and so forth.
> 4. What is an entropy functional anyway? as a function on
> distributions that just represents them by some number? What
> properties do you want an entropy function to have, and how does that
> tie the form you need to the characteristics of the distribution that
> will answer the questions you want? This gets at Nick’s question
> whether there is one entropy concept or many, which is different from
> whether there is one entropy functional form or many. Here it really
> is better to use what the information-theory people have found clean
> good ways to say, and to avoid intimidation, one need not even use
> fancy technical words. It’s just about how one stipulates
> particularity out of a field of variation, and how to attach measures
> to how particular something is among its alternatives.
> 5. Finally we can get to questions about whether the distributions
> that answer our questions are steady or dynamical, whether (even if
> they are steady) the samples from them that answer our questions
> (mathematically, called correlation functions) would look the same if
> played backward in time, or would change in some way, and so forth.
> That gets at what one means by, among the vastness of possible
> distributions, the ones that the tag “state” in the equilibrium-thermo
> jargon point at. This is what I mean by pinning the bastards down and
> saying “When you use this term “state”, you all seem to mean the same
> thing by it, but I have no idea what the HELL any of you mean, because
> you haven’t told me. So [please] tell me.” THIS POINT IS AGAIN ONE
> OF THE CRUCIAL ONES: it gets around the oddness that there can be
> entropy functions of most any distribution, but almost-none of those
> are the-entropy-that-is-a-state-function, which Frank forwarded to
> Nick, or which I have referred to. And the reason they aren’t, is
> that the distributions on which they are computed aren’t those special
> “states” of equilibrium thermo.
> 6. There is a little clean-up that one should do, which is to point
> out that getting to distributions that really are steady and
> mirror-symmetric if we reverse the direction of play in time will
> often whittle us down to a small number of boundary-condition
> properties that we can arrange, and these then account for the origin
> of pressure and temperature (or what you like).
>
> There’s more, but it proceeds more or less like this; very
> plumber-like, or like tax forms: what line goes to what next line?
> All that goes on to unpack in choices about how to use the equations,
> and get us away from the goddamned focus on energy, from which none of
> this makes particular sense, to a focus on probability, where suddenly
> it all becomes pretty straightforward. But most people don’t feel
> like listening to this, so I won’t do it here.
>
> So that’s the pre-processing that would fall before the
> here-memorize-this “starting point” that the chatbots are mostly
> handing Nick (or any of us). Rather than do that work properly
> (which, you see, is not so very hard; 6 bullet points), they will tell
> yarns until the cows come home, which ultimately never contain the
> thing one actually needs to know, which is what choices went into
> making some claim. The yarns are fine, for getting visual and other
> metaphors, but they aren’t a substitute.
>
> Anyway. Only my opinions. Probably most people will find the above
> approach appalling. But I have had a surprising number of younger
> people tell me that, for the first time, they didn’t feel lost and
> intimidated by it, but realized they could navigate comfortably from
> these starting points. Often these are people I didn’t meet before
> they told me that, but some of them I have had longer teaching
> relations with. So at least for somebody it is helpful.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Jun 18, 2025, at 12:38, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>
>> my guess is that Nick (like many of us) is just trying to get a
>> handle on some Thermodynamic concepts intuitively, by making up his
>> own simple examples and building on them? A little
>> world-building/exploration by some measure?
>>
>> Entropy is perhaps the most arcane (but not occult) of thermodynamic
>> concepts and in the top handful in all of physics? Pressure,
>> Temperature, and Volume are roughly directly apprehensible with the
>> likes of Energy, Work, Ergodicity, Equilibrium, Reversibility taking
>> a little more thought, and Entropy, Enthalpy, and the wycked mother
>> of them all the Partition Function (Z) really difficult to think
>> about in their own terms.
>>
>> Entropy blends macroscopic state functions with microscopic
>> statistical behaviors. It resists single-intuition anchoring: it's
>> about disorder, information, irreversibility, energy quality, and more.
>>
>> Over decades, starting with a BS in Physics, I have been through the
>> combinatorics of iso baric/choric/thermal (PVT)systems and all of
>> their combinations, designed to implement the suite of common cycles
>> (rankine, stirling, otto, diesel, etc) at different times and while
>> that helped to carve out an intuition for the other more abstract
>> quantities (like Entropy). I don't know I've ever been lead directly
>> to those, instead having to absorb (much of?) the full suite of
>> examples to begin to appreciate the arcane (albeit not quite occult)
>> quantities?
>>
>> Ruth and Bruce would have a few canned examples to work through which
>> is sometimes a good way to get there, but sometimes there is nothing
>> more satisfying than making up your own narratives and exploring
>> their implications, providing your world-building is consistent and
>> coherent. George is a very patient copilot in such adventures, if
>> not always the perfect navigator?
>>
>> I'm probably just stirring (increasing the entropy of this thread)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/17/25 2:47 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>>
>>> I supplied another prompt to Géminis which i thought would yield an
>>> illuminating response:
>>>
>>> What is isentropic expansion?
>>>
>>> Isentropic expansion is a thermodynamic process where a substance
>>> (usually a gas) expands without any change in its entropy. This is
>>> an idealized process, meaning it assumes two key conditions:
>>> * Adiabatic: No heat is transferred into or out of the system.
>>> * Reversible: There are no irreversible losses due to factors like
>>> friction, turbulence, or unrestrained expansion.
>>> Because entropy is a measure of disorder or randomness in a system,
>>> a constant entropy implies that the process is as efficient as
>>> possible, with no energy "lost" or converted into less useful forms.
>>> Key characteristics of isentropic expansion:
>>> * Constant entropy (\Delta S = 0): This is the defining characteristic.
>>> * No heat transfer (\text{Q} = 0): Since the process is adiabatic.
>>> * Decrease in temperature: As the substance expands and does work,
>>> its internal energy decreases, leading to a drop in temperature.
>>> This is in contrast to an isothermal expansion where heat would be
>>> added to maintain constant temperature.
>>> * Decrease in pressure: As the volume increases and temperature
>>> drops, the pressure of the substance also decreases.
>>> Why is it important?
>>> Isentropic expansion is a crucial concept in thermodynamics and
>>> engineering for several reasons:
>>> * Idealized model: It serves as a theoretical benchmark against
>>> which real-world processes can be compared. No real process is
>>> perfectly isentropic, but understanding this ideal helps engineers
>>> evaluate how efficiently actual systems operate.
>>> * Efficiency calculations: The concept of isentropic efficiency is
>>> used to measure how closely an actual expansion process (like in a
>>> turbine) approaches the ideal isentropic case. This helps in
>>> designing more efficient engines and power systems.
>>> * Design and analysis: It's fundamental to the design and analysis
>>> of various engineering systems, including:
>>> * Turbines: In gas and steam turbines, hot, high-pressure fluids
>>> expand to produce work. Isentropic expansion helps determine the
>>> maximum work output.
>>> * Nozzles: In applications like rocket propulsion and jet
>>> engines, nozzles are designed to accelerate fluids to high
>>> velocities through isentropic expansion.
>>> * Internal combustion engines: The expansion (power) stroke in
>>> these engines is often approximated as an isentropic process for
>>> analysis.
>>> * Refrigeration cycles: Isentropic expansion plays a role in
>>> these cycles as well.
>>> In essence, isentropic expansion represents the most efficient
>>> possible expansion of a fluid, and while it's an idealization, it
>>> provides a powerful tool for understanding, analyzing, and
>>> optimizing energy conversion systems.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2025, 2:44 PM Santafe <desmith at santafe.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Nick,
>>>
>>> Yes; I can report how things appear to me. Feel free to growl
>>> that they are not correct. I will stay away from making claims
>>> about what things, or you, “are”. I have no access to that.
>>>
>>> What I see is you sort-of-demanding that the terms that happen
>>> to interest you will be the terms in which natural phenomena
>>> admit an understanding. So you give more and more elaborate
>>> descriptions of experiments and ask about outcomes, but you
>>> leave out 2/3 of the specification that an actual outcome would
>>> depend on, as somebody pointed out in this latest case about the
>>> tapping. This is why Marcus’s advocacy of putting things into
>>> an algorithm is so central. If a machine generates an
>>> algorithm, it might do so by simply making guesses about all the
>>> things you didn’t actually tell it, but at least, for the
>>> algorithm to exist, we will have an explicit record of what its
>>> assumptions were.
>>>
>>> Your comments about category errors upped the ante on that; I
>>> see them as a premise that the terms you choose going in, and
>>> the rules of argument you learned in parochial school, will
>>> grant you access through thinking to how nature really is.
>>> That’s why I called you a metaphysician before (and at which you
>>> growled).
>>>
>>> What I saw was people repeatedly telling you that, when the part
>>> of humanity that works in this area uses “the entropy” referring
>>> to equilibrium, they have the property of “being constructed to
>>> mean a state function” entailed in that term, and then you
>>> continued to make assertion-statements that entropy is not a
>>> function determinable by whatever one means by “a state”. One
>>> response to such a situation might be to ask “Hmm; I wonder
>>> what-all they mean when they say `a state’; they might not be
>>> telling me enough for me to follow them.” Or, one could
>>> conclude that they are making category errors, and that your
>>> rules of argument from parochial school tell you what those
>>> errors are. Choosing to do the latter, to me, is as close as
>>> one can get in real life, to the pupil for whom the master pours
>>> tea, and continues to pour after the cup is full. The student
>>> asks why do you keep pouring when the cup is full? etc. The
>>> standard story.
>>>
>>> It’s interesting: I would be the last one to criticize anybody
>>> for trying to understand something in other terms that occur to
>>> him, than those that a field conventionally uses. I very much
>>> like that mode of working, and it is mostly what I do — not
>>> through any greatness of soul; just because I can’t follow other
>>> people, so I grab on where I can from my own proclivities.
>>> Mostly I end up in a mess that way, too. So the difference is
>>> all in what you do when you hit a snag, and the people around
>>> you seem to be able to coordinate with each other enough to be
>>> getting something done. It’s evidence, to at least be reflected
>>> upon.
>>>
>>> Your statement "I’ve gone back to feeling that I don’t even
>>> know enough to ask a question.” struck me as a glimmering of the
>>> recognition that we don’t get to dictate to nature the terms in
>>> which phenomena become understandable. Those terms are
>>> something we have to figure out along the way, along with the
>>> rules of argument that apply to them. Glen has written in many
>>> posts (a burst of them a year or two ago) about the role of
>>> embedded practice in this “coming to terms”. Of course, we can
>>> always dictate. (We used to say “It’s a free country”; though
>>> that seems more awkward now.) But wherever that dictation gets
>>> you, it won’t be understanding.
>>>
>>> Anyway. DaveW can tell you that I don’t understand anything
>>> about Zen or about any contemplative tradition. (And if he
>>> can’t tell you that, I can find others who will. It is a
>>> *secret* in the closed hand!) But I hear these things that come
>>> out of the various literatures, and they often seem to me like
>>> delightful distillations of how people are; just the kind of
>>> things you would expect cultures to keep and to transmit over
>>> millennia, through innumerable hands, because they bring the
>>> world into better focus.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 18, 2025, at 1:01, Nicholas Thompson
>>>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I did not understand, and wanted to understand, your zen
>>>> comment. I am reluctant to ask you to punch the tar baby again
>>>> . You are, of course, under no obligation to cure my madness
>>>> or buffer my aging. But given the coincidence between that
>>>> comment and DaveW's, who often presses Zen on me, I thought you
>>>> might be pointing at something there I should pay close
>>>> attention to.
>>>>
>>>> It will be ok. You was born and bred in a briar patch.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Santafe
>>>> <desmith at santafe.edu>
>>>> *Sent:*Monday, June 16, 2025 11:30 PM
>>>> *To:*The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>>> <friam at redfish.com>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] Entropy RE-redux
>>>> Zen moment Nick:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 17, 2025, at 12:00, Nicholas Thompson
>>>>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve gone back to feeling that I don’t even know enough to
>>>>> ask a question.
>>>>
>>>> Just there for an instant, the teacup dipped below full. btw.:
>>>> this sentence is a wonderful encapsulation of the difference
>>>> between the metaphysician and the scientist. Welcome back.
>>>>
>>>> Frank’s language below is good. It’s work to understand it, of
>>>> course, but the crucial starting point is that it admits an
>>>> understanding because there is a consistent thing being asserted.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You've probably done this. Nick.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, entropy (S) is a state variable in thermodynamics.
>>>>> Here's what that means:
>>>>> * Definition of a State Variable: A state variable (or state
>>>>> function) is a property of a thermodynamic system that depends
>>>>> only on the current state of the system, not on the path or
>>>>> process taken to reach that state. If a system is in a
>>>>> particular equilibrium state, its state variables will have
>>>>> specific, unique values.
>>>>> * Why Entropy is a State Variable:
>>>>> * Path Independence: The change in entropy between two
>>>>> states is the same regardless of the reversible or
>>>>> irreversible path taken to go from the initial state to the
>>>>> final state.
>>>>> * Unique Value for a Given State: For any given equilibrium
>>>>> state of a system (defined by other state variables like
>>>>> temperature, pressure, and volume), there is a unique value of
>>>>> entropy.
>>>>> * Mathematical Property: Mathematically, a quantity is a
>>>>> state variable if its differential is an exact differential,
>>>>> meaning that its integral over a closed path is zero. This is
>>>>> true for entropy.
>>>>> * Contrast with Path Variables: In contrast, quantities like
>>>>> heat (Q) and work (W) are not state variables. The amount of
>>>>> heat transferred or work done depends entirely on the specific
>>>>> path followed during a process.
>>>>> In summary, entropy is a fundamental property that
>>>>> characterizes the state of a thermodynamic system and is
>>>>> independent of its history.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>
>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 9:27 AM Nicholas Thompson
>>>>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Same setup as before. Cylinder with two plungers and a
>>>>> peggable slider at dead center. Lets fill our compartments
>>>>> with bbs of the same volume. Unpeg the divider. Now
>>>>> lets tap on the two opposite plungers with a series of
>>>>> blows of the same average magnitude but different but
>>>>> different positive skew in the distribution of magnitudes.
>>>>> Will the divider move?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>> Clark University
>>>>> nthompson at clarku.edu
>>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,66C6e2iSekxSeQbiB_ZsTxOriBnqwKBTLqh8i1LVfbmh_RUPGnaMoA2X0XzGSNY1OSNIGVKq5JGhttJ4FEmJsNpv71mRlspOCeviAChun__2&typo=1>
>>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .--
>>>>> .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-.
>>>>> ..- .-..
>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
>>>>> Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,BBKRTt4iFNsT5hMJU7rVcZSxntpugmlSgu9hX9cMJ_QhLeyhLrxxkxKv-P5miwe0cnkQ8euuSE_CptqRlYymzx6sv9n6b_ubJoD-Ubhc4aY,&typo=1>
>>>>> to
>>>>> (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,EuB38SmBSUsER7IYs45xj1vr8aNX1gP6TqAjyCJmzJo7Q4_mWxteMm8_6TiBNwdor8YQ2sD9Anx3IEEYGqYiZwQKRB9AoQ1oPLQmaIF3xQ39n8M,&typo=1>
>>>>> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,vxkYUu-RTlLoom4ATOr6za_sCJODY-pohihN7VWApEgNXnNN_wnqau8JX-jiV5ZPIvXIjFX6-wL0GGZECLQMOpEtcFku0tJcrK9GbXg8&typo=1>
>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru
>>>>> presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,bGMLn_HEWjVKvfbeD6AxHcYR4hAvxKK_nnp8yy-DZ0mpuHMK2Yu_eCKjXf1AlZi1cgUeqYB6AVFELOl-Fyn8kP4HwEQSaTGaiyCsgbdSYhlDMxN5uNRL&typo=1>
>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-.
>>>>> --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
>>>>> Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,cqm3iCTcWjaTVVKLVOBIRAkZQiGj8ltut_wtFgHXbGpR_Hpd0Sz_5Y12W8lRMk0JEFRLTFA_29OiUoY_3fUWdFKehG_L2RvraFMZhZPctqZT0HB7bmMPshW7j7xh&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>>>>> to
>>>>> (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,HJh9vAg4Q2ZeEk6PxTDcbyYIBPShqZLt1ozglVcvOcrUfLVbI7PxIRy1wh__CtmXCaqwvtsAL5QGBiZMyFeHUIEmqppHyl5011tIosvO&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>>>>> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,qSOfuxHpLiXDrPqnHyKryb4tbbjBeisvHBEV3OxGZcSOMZpds-4AjvdOyxW5_9RMg-ccKioExMlgrckIQQLk7Fm-C14q70wgDUkTTPvB&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru
>>>>> presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,ibvUL-sixbzUhBmrJbbdT0RGRn4L-YZuvmUXeT22TykXg2oQMX_lf7RL5cvKIWALIv9Tr5NZSMhQCXgFVuaJ2za4ocZe6MUsorygsTpTj1iW&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-.
>>>>> --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
>>>>> Zoomhttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,29c0_V7sCDMsG5E-lv7MwbcNH5_3NKuBy2xwVomTfytNJZGNRcSdcYL74S6HcPXgRokI_EIGBJZNl7vuR_9o8L1G_eT3hzsaa_di3kiJXxLqeJjIAJxmfdJpHNQ1&typo=1
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,29c0_V7sCDMsG5E-lv7MwbcNH5_3NKuBy2xwVomTfytNJZGNRcSdcYL74S6HcPXgRokI_EIGBJZNl7vuR_9o8L1G_eT3hzsaa_di3kiJXxLqeJjIAJxmfdJpHNQ1&typo=1>
>>>>> to
>>>>> (un)subscribehttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,narwDdwYSZWqlfxTz6IVD2Z-PuwhGsZaM2Td6RcnaMIK16YDDz89y2o6hTFN1M_YbP6xEW8LRsHzzw1qeVBqHG6H4ZkfFHEWatWJvrQWau0NGMt4K7ftNuTp4EE,&typo=1
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,narwDdwYSZWqlfxTz6IVD2Z-PuwhGsZaM2Td6RcnaMIK16YDDz89y2o6hTFN1M_YbP6xEW8LRsHzzw1qeVBqHG6H4ZkfFHEWatWJvrQWau0NGMt4K7ftNuTp4EE,&typo=1>
>>>>> FRIAM-COMIChttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,VweAxnc7YFjjH0Q2ipr7KMJGlm8-ynlZmOKwHdF2WREDixY7m6DcjkRIpxYwcKH44DiXq_nQXba1gr7ZcoYKqTHfTyBMH7zwrIuiacv2sAVoqm1j4LSBAvH1&typo=1
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,VweAxnc7YFjjH0Q2ipr7KMJGlm8-ynlZmOKwHdF2WREDixY7m6DcjkRIpxYwcKH44DiXq_nQXba1gr7ZcoYKqTHfTyBMH7zwrIuiacv2sAVoqm1j4LSBAvH1&typo=1>
>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru
>>>>> presenthttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,xabKQnlOYB2z5wqASXegKpK3UbjxDii1cSJ6hNbEFWPEpQQx0tiO7VSbf75x1HoRM1UkNyiQjuftR1jsYzHEt-3CxpsjLwulIXv7Ol2DJKdFMhBRd9c,&typo=1
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,xabKQnlOYB2z5wqASXegKpK3UbjxDii1cSJ6hNbEFWPEpQQx0tiO7VSbf75x1HoRM1UkNyiQjuftR1jsYzHEt-3CxpsjLwulIXv7Ol2DJKdFMhBRd9c,&typo=1>
>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-.
>>>> --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
>>>> Zoomhttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Vl8lp9pTTyvC10-anv0N-Z8riS2aEjKEnXavhSMyxtL-U3b7aSy6_UPNi9XOUlD6hv9YQK2oBEGgUw4-QrQUlf8xLwZzDwlXxUBREYK-&typo=1
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Vl8lp9pTTyvC10-anv0N-Z8riS2aEjKEnXavhSMyxtL-U3b7aSy6_UPNi9XOUlD6hv9YQK2oBEGgUw4-QrQUlf8xLwZzDwlXxUBREYK-&typo=1>
>>>> to
>>>> (un)subscribehttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,lGajjb19XipFEnJVR5nxlXZVCvzECtobK5vusxUS226IB-DMZtbsZcwMNRW0l-Mo-HXrcq4VWQxO0AMvREgg_d3lm-oXUm_c7Pp4nMTQXZI,&typo=1
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,lGajjb19XipFEnJVR5nxlXZVCvzECtobK5vusxUS226IB-DMZtbsZcwMNRW0l-Mo-HXrcq4VWQxO0AMvREgg_d3lm-oXUm_c7Pp4nMTQXZI,&typo=1>
>>>> FRIAM-COMIChttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,JDVc4zcZJNTw7K40AmZ8EcGBPnMGvhdr4C5Nt8DZcMvAetwLbCGMmVqj75xzVDzxqX2VvChTiF7wnqZgHehuRORF3Dqdmifw4V4lTHH37nGxYWivOIhBDg,,&typo=1
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,JDVc4zcZJNTw7K40AmZ8EcGBPnMGvhdr4C5Nt8DZcMvAetwLbCGMmVqj75xzVDzxqX2VvChTiF7wnqZgHehuRORF3Dqdmifw4V4lTHH37nGxYWivOIhBDg,,&typo=1>
>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru
>>>> presenthttps://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Supir20nRIG4PWPxR5X1dFq-EgyitRIcRX6uZIMtr4rVaFap6YU4YC_AWvibDO2WEySi8BDNXZUMD5wRqIopFWFUtt0dzbieAjlt0KIC4p-0vKGW5lxYwWQH4Sw,&typo=1
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Supir20nRIG4PWPxR5X1dFq-EgyitRIcRX6uZIMtr4rVaFap6YU4YC_AWvibDO2WEySi8BDNXZUMD5wRqIopFWFUtt0dzbieAjlt0KIC4p-0vKGW5lxYwWQH4Sw,&typo=1>
>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. ---
>>> -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe
>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives: 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>> <OpenPGP_0xD5BAF94F88AFFA63.asc>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-.
>> ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..-
>> ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,eOR6lXHbkz9FDp_F5EhvtBdVA011L8K9ntJGytID_gg0tuW1mbXJJIh1Ao_DveQtQClCQf5VHo_KZ-aJZqhB43Z8l02-HMRur-tQnD7uRjdvnCQhnaU,&typo=1
>> to (un)subscribe
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,3R-CpTO75xCb8a586XMCGfZNO4N1YAqWott72o-esdXhNom1IZwQciEW4YoNVNtUa-GzzfnrBSQMGYflcmc70H3uUPWL9v86gfaaWBreVKH_iaI5E9r1qER0gj-C&typo=1
>> FRIAM-COMIC
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,iP5UtG9cXGZb9iFbdK7S9-wjB-lxbUCrHrAJVtf8z4uHkrqHO2zXuOiFjR7LQD9MgGajU2fDwW1MHM4C9zspD9Xd6RL9W6GGCEBVt4icMjO1fW4FEsk,&typo=1
>> archives: 5/2017 thru present
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,2-ZbJ6GSm8x03lzF6kWDloQOmS-ED-aQOkQE2Jqjsxdm33er5ijqoQTRCTHLzTqrrCEa1WfYUnK49Bs6T8bg40GTs-qw08LIBLBeh6480UGC6GSfvlxXbfnc8g,,&typo=1
>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20250618/77cf28e5/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_0xD5BAF94F88AFFA63.asc
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 3118 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP public key
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20250618/77cf28e5/attachment-0001.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 840 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20250618/77cf28e5/attachment-0001.sig>
More information about the Friam
mailing list