[FRIAM] From Rogan and Sanders to Religious Education and Taxes!

Fri Jun 27 14:34:09 EDT 2025

My Grandchild Goes to Danish School — And Other Surprisingly Delightful
Things About Denmark

Part One: Finn Starts School in a Foreign Language, With Extra Math on Top**
A bit more than three years ago, my middle daughter and her family packed
their bags and moved to Denmark—just in time for their eldest, Finn, to
start primary school. It was a big change. They’d grown up in South Africa,
speaking Afrikaans at home. Finn could speak English too (as most South
Africans can), but Danish? Not a word.

They could’ve sent him to an English-speaking private school in Denmark,
but decided instead to go local—literally, to the nearest public Danish
school. Brave move!

Now, early on, something amusing happened. In math class, Finn was staring
into space instead of focusing. The teacher asked if there was a problem.
Finn said yes — “This is too easy. I’m bored.” (Which is a bold way to make
a first impression.)

The teacher tested him a bit and realized he was ahead of the pack. Instead
of just telling him to behave, they let him go work in a quieter space
where he could do more advanced math. That kind of flexibility really
surprised (and impressed) us.

After two years, they moved him to another public school — one that does
education a bit differently. Less textbook, more teamwork. The focus is on
learning through projects, not just memorizing things. Recently, Finn’s
group joined a national robot-building competition. We followed the
excitement from South Africa like nervous sports fans. His team led for
most of the contest but stumbled at the finish line during the final
presentation. Still, they came second — not bad for a bunch of robot
rookies!

All this showed us that Denmark’s public schools are both serious and
surprisingly chill. There are clear standards, but not much
micromanagement. No government officials breathing down teachers' necks
about what page to be on by Friday. Instead, teachers, students, and
parents are seen as partners, all trusted to do their bit.

Part Two: A Capitalist and a Socialist Walk Into a Bar... (Also Known as
the Danish Economy)
Denmark runs what’s called a “mixed economy.” Sounds complicated, but it’s
basically this: the government takes care of important things like
healthcare, education, and making sure no one falls through the cracks.
Meanwhile, businesses are left to do what they do best — make money, invent
things, and keep the wheels turning.

The taxes are high (Danes don’t complain much about that, oddly), but the
return on investment is impressive. Money from taxes goes straight into
services that make life better and more secure. Schools, in particular, get
a lot of love — because education is seen not just as a cost but as a
long-term investment in people.

And that helps the economy too. The better the schools, the more skilled
the workforce, and the smoother things run. It’s a kind of economic karma —
the government and the private sector helping each other out without
stepping on each other’s toes.

Part Three: Trust Me, I’m Danish
Here’s the thing about Denmark that really stands out: people trust each
other. Like, a lot. Around three out of four Danes believe “most people can
be trusted.” That’s an impressive number in today’s world of scams, spam,
and suspicious emails from distant princes.

This trust isn’t just between friends and neighbors. It also applies to
public institutions — the government, the police, the courts. Corruption
levels are low, red tape is minimal, and things mostly just... work.

Some say it’s because Denmark is a fairly small and culturally tight-knit
country. But whatever the reason, this trust creates a kind of social glue.
It makes cooperation possible — and smooth.

Part Four: Private Schools Are Welcome (But No Elitist Drama, Please)
Public schools in Denmark are fully funded by the state. Private schools,
on the other hand, get partial support — and they’re allowed to charge some
tuition.

But here’s the twist: private schools aren’t seen as elite fortresses or
luxury escapes. They’re more like flavor options within the same trusted
system. They still have to meet the same high standards, and they don’t get
to bypass the rules.

This helps avoid the trap that many countries fall into — where private
schools end up leaving public ones in the dust. In Denmark, both exist side
by side, and both are expected to pull their weight.

Part Five: Kids With Opinions — and Teachers Who Listen
The Danish approach to teaching is quite refreshing. There’s a strong focus
on growing the whole child — not just stuffing their heads with facts. Kids
are encouraged to think for themselves, ask questions, and (nicely)
challenge ideas.

There’s also a lot of group work and cross-subject learning. Education
isn’t just about passing tests — it’s about becoming an active citizen who
knows how to cooperate, think critically, and contribute to society.

Teachers have a lot of freedom to teach in a way that works. Students, in
turn, are expected to take responsibility and participate actively. It’s
not chaotic — it’s just that everyone is treated like they matter.

And somehow, it all ties together. A society that trusts its people ends up
with schools that trust students and teachers. And schools that trust
students end up producing citizens who can be trusted. Funny how that works.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 at 19:10, steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> By third grade I was mumbling/humming through the "one-nation under God"
> portion of the daily prayer (aka "Pledge of Allegiance") and by High School
> I was standing attentively and politely but without hand over heart and
> without even humming the tune.  School administration definitely side-eyed
> me but never said a word out loud.
>
> <long ramble about my own religious/not education>
>
> The first elision came because I had seen the half-dozen Churches in my
> town/region and *heard of* the range of Judiasm, Islam and perhaps
> Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism and dozens of variants and knew from the
> rhetoric involved that they all (the Ibrahamics) knew with absolute surety
> that they prayed to the *one true God* and pretty much everybody else was
> going to hell for not doing so.   My mother took us to a Bible School in
> the summer to get a break from us (and help us develop minimal social
> skills playing dodge-ball and red rover?) and was totally fascinated by the
> biblical stories of miracles.  The teacher got quite mad at me when I kept
> asking for more details because I thought that fish/loaves,
> red-sea-parting, resurrecting-from-dead stuff was really cool.   I think
> she took it all literally but didn't know what to do with a guy  like me
> when *I* took it literally.   My parents explained allegory and metaphor to
> me after that.
>
> Maybe there would be a rope line at the Pearly Gates with St. Peter as the
> bouncer... letting those who could reframe *their God* in terms of *the one
> True God* well enough get let through...  Maybe among the 99 names of
> Allah, one of them suited the Xtian version of Yahweh enough to let you
> in?  Maybe if you invoked Moroni's name St Peter would let you cut the
> line?   If there *was* a God (esp.  old white man in grey beard) I really
> doubted he would be so restrictive, but that was hard to tell listening to
> the "true believers"  I wasn't having it, and besides when I *did* try
> praying all I could hear was the sound of my own pulse, no matter how quiet
> I was.  The ants, trees and lizards and even clouds spoke louder and
> clearer to me for sure, and they never discussed heaven or hell or
> salvation or even right and wrong.
>
> By high school (1971) the Vietnam War conscription and the civil unrest
> over Equal Rights and Civil Rights had alerted me to just how bogus any
> Nation (mine in particular) could be.  To *pledge allegiance* to this felt
> very hypocritical. I already knew I wasn't going to volunteer to be taught
> how to kill and put in a position of  "kill or be killed".  I was planning
> my (permanent) exit from the good ole USA as early as 14 if the alternative
> was to play "kill or be killed".
>
>  I was still "proud to be a 'murrican" and still liked the tune of the
> Star Spangled Banner and the sight of "Old Glory" flapping in the wind
> (full or half-mast, preferably right-side up, but sometimes on the back of
> a motorcycle jacket or helmet as well).
>
> I wanted to believe "we" were the greatest nation on the planet even
> if/though "we" were clearly flawed as a nation and probably as a
> *people*.   If anything, the constant indoctrination of said "Pledge of
> Allegiance" helped keep me aware that there was some serious *God and
> Country* propaganda afoot in our public sphere, even if it was limited
> (mostly) to that one ritual.
>
> When it was time to shove my daughters into public school I seriously
> considered what the alternatives might be.
>
> Their mother was Catholic and we had married in the church and I dutifuly
> attended Mass weekly *with* them, and dutifully delivered them to Catechism
> class weekly and dutifully did not undermine their indoctrination.
> Fortunately the Priests we had were awesome and their homilies were, for
> all the Biblical references quite secularly meaningful.  The times (mid
> 80s) were ripe for lots of home schooling and there were more than a few
> private (some religious, but other Montessori and maybe Steiner? were
> available as well) in Los Alamos
>
> </ramble1>
>
> <ramble more specifically about schooling and religion>
>
> I think "charter" schools were already a funding model and I approved of
> them.  It was a lot harder for me to see the wisdom of public funding the
> Gilead-style (nod to Margaret Atwood) homeschooling and religious schools
> I saw around me.  I was not turning my children over to any "Aunt Lydias".
>
> I could agree with Marcus' implication that childless folks shouldn't have
> to pay taxes subsidizing the fecundity of the breeders, but *I* actually
> want future generations to be as fully and properly educated as possible.
> There are lots of things in our civilization/culture/society I am willing
> (eager) to fund "for the greater good", even though that is a very
> subjective phrase.   I'd cut out funding our military industrial complex
> long before I'd worry about paying other people's medical bills or their
> children's education.
>
> Even though I see some horrific consequences (see every
> home/christian-schooled bible-thumping member of congress and the
> administration today) of progressive values allowing regressive values to
> flourish, it feels like a necessary evil.
>
> My daughters both found their way out of the propaganda machine that was
> their Catechism classes, partly BECAUSE the Priest's Homilies were so
> good.  They both recognized that the religious idiom was *just an idiom*,
> not a mainline to absolute truth (see my recent rant about Reality).   I
> presented to them up to the time when they were offered Confirmation (and
> both declined in spite of a disappointed mother and an angry grandmother)
> as a Curious Agnostic despite being pretty deeply skeptical (if not
> cynical) about the whole range of Ibrahamic (and beyond) religions.   I
> can't claim anything *but* A-Theistic, but avoid falling into Anti-Theism
> (e.g. Dawkins).
>
> My daughters may have been pushed to Anti-Theism by that early
> indoctrination...   Their mother's (and more acutely/notably grandmother's)
> hypocritical version of Catholicism did them more harm than the Church
> itself ever could.  I only wish I'd been more astute and able to provide
> them some meta-narrative that *framed* their Catholic indoctrination better
> rather than endorsing or undermining it.  They fled and never looked back.
> They lost something in that, though I'm unclear on precisely what.
>
> I've a friend who taught an advanced form of introductory physics for a
> decade in Cour d'Alene ID to kids who were often religious homeschooled or
> at least packed full of Creationism.  I think he did it well and helped
> guide many of them through their night terrors about "going to hell"
> because they were learning something which didn't align perfectly with
> Church Doctrine.  His biggest regret was discovering that his "best
> students" inevitably went on to work in the Military Industrial machine or
> similar.  They were raised on one form of hubris and too often his efforts
> only helped them translate it from the JudeoChristian version to a
> TechnoLibertarian version... somehow while still holding Creationist and
> Paternalistic beliefs.
>
> </ramble2>
>
>
> On 6/27/25 3:46 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> I totally agree — it would be great if all students learned about the
> major world religions. I don’t have the inside scoop, but I’d be a bit
> surprised if Texas public schools don’t already include that.
>
> That said, teaching about religion is one thing. Starting the day with
> “Let us pray”? That’s a different ballgame — and, in my view, a firm no-go
> for any public school.
>
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 at 08:21, Russell Standish <lists at hpcoders.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 07:31:53AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> >
>> > Now, here’s where it gets interesting. If we’re all chipping in tax
>> money for
>> > public education, then yes — I’m 100% on board with keeping religion
>> out of
>> > public schools. That’s not only a fair deal, I would be horrified if any
>> > religion were included.
>> >
>>
>> I have a dissenting opinion on this. I believe all students should
>> learn about all the major religions, including having a passing
>> knowledge of the contents of the Bible, the Koran, and a notion of the
>> special traditions etc of each one - eg the importance of confession
>> to Catholics, the importance of Shabat to Jews and Muslims, etc. In
>> todays world, you come across all these sorts of people, and having an
>> understanding of where they come from helps a lot.
>>
>> After all, the Bible is probably the most important work of fiction in
>> the English language, followed closely by the complete works of
>> Shakespeare.
>>
>> When my son went to school here in Australia, there was a smorgasbord
>> of about 3-4 varieties of Christianity and Judaism (no Islam, from
>> what I recall), and Non-religion, where you just got to read books in
>> the library.  We sent him to the latter of course, but if there'd been
>> a proper comparitive religion course, that would have been my choice.
>>
>> > But if my neighbour is still paying her taxes like the rest of us, and
>> on top
>> > of that has to fork out again to send her kids to a private Christian
>> school —
>> > that's also just not right. A voucher system, to me, seems like a fair
>> > compromise. It respects both freedom of choice and fairness of
>> contribution.
>> > Maybe it’s not a perfect solution, but it does stop us from
>> double-charging
>> > parents for believing something different.
>> >
>> > For me, diversity of opinions and freedom to choose your religion is a
>> very
>> > good and positive thing.
>> >
>> >
>
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