[FRIAM] From Rogan and Sanders to Religious Education and Taxes!

[steve smith]

By third grade I was mumbling/humming through the "one-nation under God" 
portion of the daily prayer (aka "Pledge of Allegiance") and by High 
School I was standing attentively and politely but without hand over 
heart and without even humming the tune.  School administration 
definitely side-eyed me but never said a word out loud.

<long ramble about my own religious/not education>

    The first elision came because I had seen the half-dozen Churches in
    my town/region and *heard of* the range of Judiasm, Islam and
    perhaps Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism and dozens of variants and knew
    from the rhetoric involved that they all (the Ibrahamics) knew with
    absolute surety that they prayed to the *one true God* and pretty
    much everybody else was going to hell for not doing so.   My mother
    took us to a Bible School in the summer to get a break from us (and
    help us develop minimal social skills playing dodge-ball and red
    rover?) and was totally fascinated by the biblical stories of
    miracles.  The teacher got quite mad at me when I kept asking for
    more details because I thought that fish/loaves, red-sea-parting,
    resurrecting-from-dead stuff was really cool.   I think she took it
    all literally but didn't know what to do with a guy  like me when
    *I* took it literally.   My parents explained allegory and metaphor
    to me after that.

    Maybe there would be a rope line at the Pearly Gates with St. Peter
    as the bouncer... letting those who could reframe *their God* in
    terms of *the one True God* well enough get let through...  Maybe
    among the 99 names of Allah, one of them suited the Xtian version of
    Yahweh enough to let you in?  Maybe if you invoked Moroni's name St
    Peter would let you cut the line?   If there *was* a God (esp.  old
    white man in grey beard) I really doubted he would be so
    restrictive, but that was hard to tell listening to the "true
    believers"  I wasn't having it, and besides when I *did* try praying
    all I could hear was the sound of my own pulse, no matter how quiet
    I was.  The ants, trees and lizards and even clouds spoke louder and
    clearer to me for sure, and they never discussed heaven or hell or
    salvation or even right and wrong.

    By high school (1971) the Vietnam War conscription and the civil
    unrest over Equal Rights and Civil Rights had alerted me to just how
    bogus any Nation (mine in particular) could be.  To *pledge
    allegiance* to this felt very hypocritical. I already knew I wasn't
    going to volunteer to be taught how to kill and put in a position
    of  "kill or be killed".  I was planning my (permanent) exit from
    the good ole USA as early as 14 if the alternative was to play "kill
    or be killed".

      I was still "proud to be a 'murrican" and still liked the tune of
    the Star Spangled Banner and the sight of "Old Glory" flapping in
    the wind (full or half-mast, preferably right-side up, but sometimes
    on the back of a motorcycle jacket or helmet as well).

    I wanted to believe "we" were the greatest nation on the planet even
    if/though "we" were clearly flawed as a nation and probably as a
    *people*.   If anything, the constant indoctrination of said "Pledge
    of Allegiance" helped keep me aware that there was some serious /God
    and Country/ propaganda afoot in our public sphere, even if it was
    limited (mostly) to that one ritual.

    When it was time to shove my daughters into public school I
    seriously considered what the alternatives might be.

    Their mother was Catholic and we had married in the church and I
    dutifuly attended Mass weekly *with* them, and dutifully delivered
    them to Catechism class weekly and dutifully did not undermine their
    indoctrination.   Fortunately the Priests we had were awesome and
    their homilies were, for all the Biblical references quite secularly
    meaningful.  The times (mid 80s) were ripe for lots of home
    schooling and there were more than a few private (some religious,
    but other Montessori and maybe Steiner? were available as well) in
    Los Alamos

    </ramble1>

<ramble more specifically about schooling and religion>

    I think "charter" schools were already a funding model and I
    approved of them.  It was a lot harder for me to see the wisdom of
    public funding the Gilead-style (nod to Margaret Atwood)
    homeschooling and religious schools  I saw around me.  I was not
    turning my children over to any "Aunt Lydias".

    I could agree with Marcus' implication that childless folks
    shouldn't have to pay taxes subsidizing the fecundity of the
    breeders, but *I* actually want future generations to be as fully
    and properly educated as possible.  There are lots of things in our
    civilization/culture/society I am willing (eager) to fund "for the
    greater good", even though that is a very subjective phrase.   I'd
    cut out funding our military industrial complex long before I'd
    worry about paying other people's medical bills or their children's
    education.

    Even though I see some horrific consequences (see every
    home/christian-schooled bible-thumping member of congress and the
    administration today) of progressive values allowing regressive
    values to flourish, it feels like a necessary evil.

    My daughters both found their way out of the propaganda machine that
    was their Catechism classes, partly BECAUSE the Priest's Homilies
    were so good.  They both recognized that the religious idiom was
    *just an idiom*, not a mainline to absolute truth (see my recent
    rant about Reality).   I presented to them up to the time when they
    were offered Confirmation (and both declined in spite of a
    disappointed mother and an angry grandmother) as a Curious Agnostic
    despite being pretty deeply skeptical (if not cynical) about the
    whole range of Ibrahamic (and beyond) religions.   I can't claim
    anything *but* A-Theistic, but avoid falling into Anti-Theism (e.g.
    Dawkins).

    My daughters may have been pushed to Anti-Theism by that early
    indoctrination...   Their mother's (and more acutely/notably
    grandmother's) hypocritical version of Catholicism did them more
    harm than the Church itself ever could.  I only wish I'd been more
    astute and able to provide them some meta-narrative that *framed*
    their Catholic indoctrination better rather than endorsing or
    undermining it.  They fled and never looked back. They lost
    something in that, though I'm unclear on precisely what.

    I've a friend who taught an advanced form of introductory physics
    for a decade in Cour d'Alene ID to kids who were often religious
    homeschooled or at least packed full of Creationism. I think he did
    it well and helped guide many of them through their night terrors
    about "going to hell" because they were learning something which
    didn't align perfectly with Church Doctrine.  His biggest regret was
    discovering that his "best students" inevitably went on to work in
    the Military Industrial machine or similar.  They were raised on one
    form of hubris and too often his efforts only helped them translate
    it from the JudeoChristian version to a TechnoLibertarian version...
    somehow while still holding Creationist and Paternalistic beliefs.

    </ramble2>


On 6/27/25 3:46 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> I totally agree — it would be great if all students learned about the 
> major world religions. I don’t have the inside scoop, but I’d be a bit 
> surprised if Texas public schools don’t already include that.
>
> That said, teaching about religion is one thing. Starting the day with 
> “Let us pray”? That’s a different ballgame — and, in my view, a firm 
> no-go for any public school.
>
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 at 08:21, Russell Standish <lists at hpcoders.com.au> 
> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 07:31:53AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>     >
>     > Now, here’s where it gets interesting. If we’re all chipping in
>     tax money for
>     > public education, then yes — I’m 100% on board with keeping
>     religion out of
>     > public schools. That’s not only a fair deal, I would be
>     horrified if any
>     > religion were included.
>     >
>
>     I have a dissenting opinion on this. I believe all students should
>     learn about all the major religions, including having a passing
>     knowledge of the contents of the Bible, the Koran, and a notion of the
>     special traditions etc of each one - eg the importance of confession
>     to Catholics, the importance of Shabat to Jews and Muslims, etc. In
>     todays world, you come across all these sorts of people, and having an
>     understanding of where they come from helps a lot.
>
>     After all, the Bible is probably the most important work of fiction in
>     the English language, followed closely by the complete works of
>     Shakespeare.
>
>     When my son went to school here in Australia, there was a smorgasbord
>     of about 3-4 varieties of Christianity and Judaism (no Islam, from
>     what I recall), and Non-religion, where you just got to read books in
>     the library.  We sent him to the latter of course, but if there'd been
>     a proper comparitive religion course, that would have been my choice.
>
>     > But if my neighbour is still paying her taxes like the rest of
>     us, and on top
>     > of that has to fork out again to send her kids to a private
>     Christian school —
>     > that's also just not right. A voucher system, to me, seems like
>     a fair
>     > compromise. It respects both freedom of choice and fairness of
>     contribution.
>     > Maybe it’s not a perfect solution, but it does stop us from
>     double-charging
>     > parents for believing something different.
>     >
>     > For me, diversity of opinions and freedom to choose your
>     religion is a very
>     > good and positive thing.
>     >
>     >
>
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