[FRIAM] Entropy Redux

Nicholas Thompson thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Wed May 28 16:16:51 EDT 2025 

Hi Eric

I am confused. If  you agree that the experiment as described is valid,
don’t have also 2 agree that the state was arrived at by 2 different
pathways

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
nthompson at clarku.edu
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson


On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 2:06 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Exactly
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2025, 1:54 PM Santafe <desmith at santafe.edu> wrote:
>
>> No wonder it is, de facto, a trick question, at the same time Nick
>> maintains that he does not intend it to be, or to believe it is, a trick
>> question.
>>
>> On May 29, 2025, at 3:08, Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> My reasons for doing this is that the distinction between an air
>> temperature that is arrived at by compression and the same air temperature
>> that is arrived at through heating is crucial to meteorology, about which I
>> am trying to write.
>>
>>
>> Temperature is a state variable.  That is inherent to its definition, so
>> if the word is to mean anything, its meaning is to include that.  If
>> meteorology is a discipline within physical science, that is true in
>> meteorology as well as anywhere else.
>>
>> “State variable” means that its value tells you all it has to tell you
>> about its role.  How it was arrived at historically is exactly _not_
>> distinguishing of anything.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 8:38 AM Alexander Rasmus <alex.m.rasmus at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter got all of this, but I’ll pile on. I think Nick is intending us
>>> to think that the initial fill is the same on both sides, but he definitely
>>> hasn’t said this. The answer to the problem as stated is that the barrier
>>> will move left, right, or not at all. I think Nick is intending that the
>>> fill be the same, and that the answer to be that the barrier move to the
>>> right. The pressure in the right cell is lower as the density is lower
>>> (unless the EOS is real weird).
>>>
>>> What’s air Nick? You also messed up your corrected version and set the
>>> second initial fill temp to be the post heating temperature
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 28, 2025, at 3:02 AM, Pieter Steenekamp <
>>> pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure if you deliberately left out any mention of the initial
>>> pressures — perhaps as part of the “catch,” which is common in trick
>>> questions like this. As I mentioned in my initial answer, it’s common to
>>> assume the initial pressures are equal, in which case the slider would move
>>> to the tight.
>>> However, if the twist is that the right-hand cylinder was initially
>>> filled with high-pressure air, then of course the slider would move to the
>>> left.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 07:14, Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks everybody.   Anybody else?   Remember, please no peeking.  Your
>>>> efforts have already helped me identify an ambiguity in how I stated the
>>>> problem.  Here is an edited version.  See if that clarification changes any
>>>> answers.
>>>> Remember, no peeking before you kick in your answers.  No herding
>>>> allowed.
>>>>
>>>> Side by side, butt-to-butt, two cylinders of air, of equal volume and
>>>> equal temperature, but different histories. They are separated by a
>>>> frictionless sliding divider which is now pegged.  Before compression
>>>> or heating, both started with air at 10 degrees C, and after compression or
>>>> heating, both arrive at 20 degrees C. The left one has arrived at its
>>>> present temperature and volume by being compressed, the right-hand one
>>>> by having its volume set to the same value as the left, BEFORE BEING FILLED
>>>> WITH AIR AT 20 DEGREES C, and ONLY  then having contents  heated.  All
>>>> compartments insulated, all manipulations quasi-static.  Now, remove the
>>>> peg, allowing the partition between the two parts to slide, one way or the
>>>> other.  Which way would it slide and why. What would your explanation
>>>> be?  Please don't read others' answers until you have submitted your own.
>>>> This is enormously helpful to me.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:19 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
>>>> pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Assuming the pressures were equal at the start, it will slide from the
>>>>> left (having been compressed) to the right.
>>>>> From the ideal gas law PV = nRT, both have equal nRT;s so the one with
>>>>> smaller V must have higher P and it would then push to the right.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 04:59, Nicholas Thompson <
>>>>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Side by side, butt-to-butt, two cylinders of air, of equal volume and
>>>>>> equal temperature, but different histories. They are separated by a
>>>>>> frictionless sliding divider which is now pegged.  Before
>>>>>> compression or heating, both started with air at 10 degrees C, and after
>>>>>> compression or heating, both arrive at 20 degrees C. The left one
>>>>>> has arrived at its present temperature and volume by being compressed, the
>>>>>> right-hand one by having its volume set to the same value as the left and
>>>>>> then having contents  heated.  All compartments insulated, all
>>>>>> manipulations quasi-static.  Now, remove the peg, allowing the partition
>>>>>> between the two parts to slide, one way or the other.  Which way
>>>>>> would it slide and why. What would your explanation be?  Please don't read
>>>>>> others' answers until you have submitted your own.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>> nthompson at clarku.edu
>>>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,ziVMqgQPZgRZt2IX9KyStwbNAbv6u78did9vqAD5Uih4uYbBnttqs-1k-EDX73c0ME30LqPyv5hHTRzxTQW39aB7GsOlVgNUP-L72w6_X7TrSBRAT8KwUpP980MU&typo=1>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>> Clark University
>>>> nthompson at clarku.edu
>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,ttAkJii414uTDNAR0v9yvtGrdCI40dlpIjgimm6K8_sMObZJPj4sjmYaY3HCUNw8dMwkrVk1wwIXgcpv6dVxvC-djCyIegJT9xbs3bQy&typo=1>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>> nthompson at clarku.edu
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,dgEBvfdZkBWRR9epqcE8chroZgDMi0TRauGXKhoBRmVB5kwm5-z3rY0VfmlJTeshZ8Ry1SEwT7HsYo1DZCS9J3yNODeUga8MtHpyEMX2EQ,,&typo=1>
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