[FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Thu Jan 19 09:14:27 EST 2017

Point taken, Eric.  That is more realistic.  I was making the point that
even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define the
disease.  There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms that
confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses.  Some psychiatric disorders can
be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are often done
posthumously.

In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia.  I
don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her chest
but couldn't even insert a tube.  Four weeks after the first symptom she
died.  Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on.  Northwestern
Memorial Hospital, 1984.

Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles" <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
wrote:

> But Frank.... doesn't it normally go a bit more like this:
>
> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?
>
> I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly
> reliable test of that hypothesis.
>
> Then let's do a chest x-ray!
>
> Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis.
> Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he
> didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test
> that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics.
>
> Then let's get those antibiotics!
>
> Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps,
> difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident
> that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now
> cured.
>
> Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia?
>
> I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me
> both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not
> really care that much about the hypothesis.  All that really matters is
> that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again
> if I meet someone that presents in the same manner.
>
> Oh.
>
> P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested
> fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note
> that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the
> prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking
> at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms
> resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is
> "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible
> for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting
> questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular
> interaction.
>
>
>
> -----------
> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
> Supervisory Survey Statistician
> U.S. Marine Corps
> <echarles at american.edu>
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?  And what is
>> this large white area on his chest x-ray?
>>
>> He has lung cancer.
>>
>> How do you know?
>>
>> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a
>> positive chest x-ray.
>>
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> wimberly3 at gmail.com     wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu
>> Phone:  (505) 995-8715      Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
>>
>>
>> I found this opinion refreshing:
>>
>> Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect
>>
>> http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/
>> narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/
>>
>> I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating
>> phenomenology with ontology:
>>
>> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a
>> sense of entitlement?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality
>> disorder.
>> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of
>> entitlement.
>>
>> But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's
>> wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever
>> tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly
>> unable the man is to fill the role of President.  But we should be careful
>> not to abandon our own principles in the process.
>>
>> --
>> ☣ glen
>>
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>
>
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