[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

[Stephen Guerin]

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 7:38 AM, gepr <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've struggled to understand your point here. Are you saying that, eg, a
> phase diagram of a device like a refrigerator, with ice in the freezer
> part, jello in the fridge part, and coolant in the compressor:
>
> 1. violates a definition of 'space',
>

No. I am using the term "phase space" as one concept - I'm not separating
the terms. In a phase space diagram, "space" is defined by the dimensions
of the control (independent) variables. In the ferromagnet, space is
temperature. In a water phase diagram you could have a 2 dimensional space
of pressure and volume. or a one dimensional space by holding one of the
control parameters constant.


> 2. cannot exist,
>

No I'm not saying that. You can have a phase space for the whole
refrigerator system. You would need to define the system and the associated
control and order parameters. Given that systems are abstractions - there
would many you can choose from. Some would be complex systems (eg energy
and mass circulation with respect to compressor/fan strength:
[image: Inline image 1]

or vibrational modes vs fan speed, etc. other system descriptions might not
be complex if I would model it as a linear relation (eg. duration of fan
activation and my electric bill) .


3. reduces to a common, atomic, phase space, or
>

Yes, you can treat the whole refrigerator as a single system.

You can also treat ice, jello and the compressor systems as separate
systems. They may be open, closed or isolated with respect to energy and
mass flows depending on the description.

Jello alone could have a few complex systems descriptions:

Critical Elasticity of Gelatin Gel
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1143/JJAP.28.1639

Effect of Shear Flow on the Phase Behavior of an Aqueous Gelatin−Dextran
Emulsion
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm0300352?journalCode=bomaf6

Transition to total internal reflection for light paths in gelatin:
https://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/laser-jello

When I gave examples like this in the past and talked about their phase
spaces and critical regimes, you said " If these systems merely contain
subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you listed are
not complex systems." I was disagreeing with you on the use of systems in
the context of phase space diagrams. The critical regime is not a subsystem
in my definitions. The system description and model is not changing in
regions of the phase space diagram. There is still only one system. Only
the control parameter(s) and the resulting change of the order
parameter(s). I would agree that the control parameter could be driven by a
coupling to an external gradient or from it's embedding in a larger system.
Though that doesn't mean we don't have a complex system.

On May 26, 2017 5:39:40 PM PDT, Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
wrote:

> >
> >We disagree on the use of systems and subsystems in the context of
> >phase
> >space then. To me, there is one system and that system has a phase
> >space -
> >There are not multiple subsystems in the phase space.
>
> --
> ⛧glen⛧
>
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