[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

[Nick Thompson]

S. G.,

 

So, what constitutes a system is arbitrary?  In the mind of the beholder? 

 

I remember when we used to argue about this at The Complex.

 

I always wanted to argue that a system is in some sense “self-bounding”.  It consists of a group of entities that are interacting more intimately with one another than they are with entities outside the system.  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 10:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Cc: Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

 

 

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 7:38 AM, gepr <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> > wrote:

I've struggled to understand your point here. Are you saying that, eg, a phase diagram of a device like a refrigerator, with ice in the freezer part, jello in the fridge part, and coolant in the compressor:

1. violates a definition of 'space',

 

No. I am using the term "phase space" as one concept - I'm not separating the terms. In a phase space diagram, "space" is defined by the dimensions of the control (independent) variables. In the ferromagnet, space is temperature. In a water phase diagram you could have a 2 dimensional space of pressure and volume. or a one dimensional space by holding one of the control parameters constant.

 

2. cannot exist,

 

No I'm not saying that. You can have a phase space for the whole refrigerator system. You would need to define the system and the associated control and order parameters. Given that systems are abstractions - there would many you can choose from. Some would be complex systems (eg energy and mass circulation with respect to compressor/fan strength:



 

or vibrational modes vs fan speed, etc. other system descriptions might not be complex if I would model it as a linear relation (eg. duration of fan activation and my electric bill) . 

 

 

3. reduces to a common, atomic, phase space, or

 

Yes, you can treat the whole refrigerator as a single system.

 

You can also treat ice, jello and the compressor systems as separate systems. They may be open, closed or isolated with respect to energy and mass flows depending on the description.

 

Jello alone could have a few complex systems descriptions:

 

Critical Elasticity of Gelatin Gel
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1143/JJAP.28.1639

 

Effect of Shear Flow on the Phase Behavior of an Aqueous Gelatin−Dextran Emulsion

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm0300352?journalCode=bomaf6

 

Transition to total internal reflection for light paths in gelatin:

https://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/laser-jello

 

When I gave examples like this in the past and talked about their phase spaces and critical regimes, you said " If these systems merely contain subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you listed are not complex systems." I was disagreeing with you on the use of systems in the context of phase space diagrams. The critical regime is not a subsystem in my definitions. The system description and model is not changing in regions of the phase space diagram. There is still only one system. Only the control parameter(s) and the resulting change of the order parameter(s). I would agree that the control parameter could be driven by a coupling to an external gradient or from it's embedding in a larger system. Though that doesn't mean we don't have a complex system.

 

On May 26, 2017 5:39:40 PM PDT, Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com <mailto:stephen.guerin at simtable.com> > wrote:

>
>We disagree on the use of systems and subsystems in the context of
>phase
>space then. To me, there is one system and that system has a phase
>space -
>There are not multiple subsystems in the phase space.

--
⛧glen⛧

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