[FRIAM] is this true?

[Eric Charles]

Nick, et al,
Reinforcing Steve's message: This conversation is hard because, in humans,
doing humaney things, it is the case, factually, that most changes in
behavior that we are wont to discusses entail changes in the brain.
However, as a good student of animal behavior, you (Nick) are of course
aware that behavioral changes can result from bodily changes in non-brain
areas. This is especially obvious when we generate behavioral change in
organisms without brains at all :- P Even if we stick with humans, the
recent explosion of research on the importance of gut bacteria in mental
health speaks to this. In many of the human cases we are wont to discuss
there are "interactions" between "body" and "brain" changes (ugh, a false
dualism if ever there was one), for example, we might discuss the numerous
changes in the brain that occur after removal of testes or ovaries, due to
the changes in circulating hormones and hormone responsivity. Or take the
leg injury Steve mentions: To some extent, I limp because my leg is
injured. However, if you track my limp from the moment of the break
forward, you will find that the particular limp I display a month out is,
in a large part, the result of some optimization problem for
walking-with-such-and-such-injuries that certainly involves adjustments
somewhere in my brain. (Not all animals do this mind you, but most people
do. I've seen no detectable change in the limps of injured lizards, for
example, after very long stretches of time.)

Back to the very beginning of this thread... there has been research for a
long time about therapy and neurochemistry. Let's examine 3 research
findings: 1) Depressed people (as a group) have lower dopamine, on average,
than non-depressed people. 2) Depressed people (as a group) who are given
dopamine are, on average, less depressed later. 3)  Depressed people (as a
group) who undergo behaviorist therapy to replace the
behaviors-patterns-that-are-depression with other behavior patterns (with
no mind-diving involved) are later found (on average) to have higher
dopamine than when they started the therapy. Ditto those that are
successful (as a group) with mind-oriented therapeutic approaches.

So, do drugs cause the same changes in the brain as therapy? I'm not sure.
However, successful therapy seems to causes the same changes in the brain
that the drugs are intended to produce. Note the implications of this for
causal attributions regarding neurotransmitter levels and mental illness.

Best,
Eric



-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Personnel Psychologist
Drug Enforcement Administration
<echarles at american.edu>


On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 12:33 PM Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> Nick -
>
> A) Autonomic bodily function.  Biomechanical body changes.   We can walk
> with a limp (or choose not to walk) because our leg is damaged without any
> change to the brain.  Perhaps our brain WILL change in response to our
> constant limping (or not leaving our chair/bed), but it isn't a brain
> change that changes our behaviour.  IN the small, the signals to the brain
> that something is wrong might not even get there, or be scrambled,
> trusting/deferring to the autonomic system to "do the right thing" and at
> best "keep the brain informed of changes".
>
> B) Bio/Neurochemistry.  Changes in blood glucose, hormones, introduced
> mood-altering substances.  Misbehaving glands (thyroid, pancreas, etc.) can
> trigger all kinds of mood/behaviour changes.  Glen reminds us that our
> microbiome can change our behaviour/mind/mood as well... people have had
> huge shifts in mood/behaviour after overzealous use of antibiotics or a
> failure of the GI tract. You can call these brain (chemistry) changes, but
> the change in mind/mood/behaviour is more the way the brain function
> changes in response to the changed chemical milieu than changes *to* the
> brain.
>
> B) *P**lastic* vs *elastic* changes.  A shot of coffee or juice (or
> mood-altering substance of choice) can shift the *brain metabolism* in ways
> that radically and quickly change behavior.  As the neurochemistry returns
> to "normal" (alcohol leaves the system (sober up) and we rehydrate (recover
> from hangover)), the enduring changes to the brain are minimal (thought
> they can endure/accrue over time).   Similarly a therapy session, some deep
> prayer, or a new years resolution can lead us to a "change of heart/mind"
> but it is unlikely to LAST unless there are attendant changes in habits and
> relationships.   It is those changes in behaviour, related to the "habits
> and relationships" that I contend *change the brain* and that a great deal
> of the long-lasting change doesn't even happen IN the brain, though it may
> be that the brain's interaction with/response to changes in biochemistry
> (and biomechanics?) lead to changes in brain (and mind) function.  Put the
> weight back on, crash your gut bacteria, go off your meds, and by golly you
> may end up right back where you were before you made those
> bodily/environmental changes in the first place.  If your *brain changed*
> when you made those other changes in habit/behaviour, why did it change
> back so precisely?   Had it ever really *changed* at all?  Or was it just
> responding differently to a different milieu/stimulus?
> - Steve
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