[FRIAM] is this true?

[doug carmichael]

what seems left out of the cause-effect connection js that depressed people have a reason to be depressed. certainly,y if someone is depressed because they lost a job or a child, we  expect brain changes that are a natural part  of  the depression. (i think there are changes in brain chem after a vigorous workout or intense movie)Talk or drugs can alter the depression but the talk therapy has the additional benefit of dealing with the cause of the depression. and adding the relationship with the therapist which bas more brain consequences. 

doug
dougcarmichael.com

> On Mar 13, 2019, at 7:58 AM, Eric Charles <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Nick, et al,
> Reinforcing Steve's message: This conversation is hard because, in humans, doing humaney things, it is the case, factually, that most changes in behavior that we are wont to discusses entail changes in the brain. However, as a good student of animal behavior, you (Nick) are of course aware that behavioral changes can result from bodily changes in non-brain areas. This is especially obvious when we generate behavioral change in organisms without brains at all :- P Even if we stick with humans, the recent explosion of research on the importance of gut bacteria in mental health speaks to this. In many of the human cases we are wont to discuss there are "interactions" between "body" and "brain" changes (ugh, a false dualism if ever there was one), for example, we might discuss the numerous changes in the brain that occur after removal of testes or ovaries, due to the changes in circulating hormones and hormone responsivity. Or take the leg injury Steve mentions: To some extent, I limp because my leg is injured. However, if you track my limp from the moment of the break forward, you will find that the particular limp I display a month out is, in a large part, the result of some optimization problem for walking-with-such-and-such-injuries that certainly involves adjustments somewhere in my brain. (Not all animals do this mind you, but most people do. I've seen no detectable change in the limps of injured lizards, for example, after very long stretches of time.)  
> 
> Back to the very beginning of this thread... there has been research for a long time about therapy and neurochemistry. Let's examine 3 research findings: 1) Depressed people (as a group) have lower dopamine, on average, than non-depressed people. 2) Depressed people (as a group) who are given dopamine are, on average, less depressed later. 3)  Depressed people (as a group) who undergo behaviorist therapy to replace the behaviors-patterns-that-are-depression with other behavior patterns (with no mind-diving involved) are later found (on average) to have higher dopamine than when they started the therapy. Ditto those that are successful (as a group) with mind-oriented therapeutic approaches. 
> 
> So, do drugs cause the same changes in the brain as therapy? I'm not sure. However, successful therapy seems to causes the same changes in the brain that the drugs are intended to produce. Note the implications of this for causal attributions regarding neurotransmitter levels and mental illness. 
> 
> Best,
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
> -----------
> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
> Personnel Psychologist
> Drug Enforcement Administration
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 12:33 PM Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>> Nick - 
>> 
>> A) Autonomic bodily function.  Biomechanical body changes.   We can walk with a limp (or choose not to walk) because our leg is damaged without any change to the brain.  Perhaps our brain WILL change in response to our constant limping (or not leaving our       chair/bed), but it isn't a brain change that changes our behaviour.  IN the small, the signals to the brain that something is wrong might not even get there, or be scrambled, trusting/deferring to the autonomic system to "do the right thing" and at best "keep the brain informed of changes".
>> 
>> B) Bio/Neurochemistry.  Changes in blood glucose, hormones, introduced mood-altering substances.  Misbehaving glands (thyroid, pancreas, etc.) can trigger all kinds of mood/behaviour changes.  Glen reminds us that our microbiome can change our behaviour/mind/mood as well... people have had huge shifts in mood/behaviour after overzealous use of antibiotics or a failure of the GI tract. You can call these brain (chemistry) changes, but the change in mind/mood/behaviour is more the way the brain function changes in response to the changed chemical milieu than changes *to* the brain.
>> 
>> B) Plastic vs elastic changes.  A shot of coffee or juice (or mood-altering substance of choice) can shift the *brain metabolism* in ways that radically and quickly change behavior.  As the neurochemistry returns to "normal" (alcohol leaves the system (sober up) and we rehydrate (recover from hangover)), the enduring changes to the brain are minimal (thought they can endure/accrue over time).   Similarly a therapy session, some deep prayer, or a new years resolution can lead us to a "change of heart/mind" but it is unlikely to LAST unless there are attendant changes in habits and relationships.   It is those changes in behaviour, related to the "habits and relationships" that I contend *change the brain* and that a great deal of the long-lasting change doesn't even happen IN the brain, though it may be that the brain's interaction with/response to changes in biochemistry (and biomechanics?) lead to changes in brain (and mind) function.  Put the weight back on, crash your gut bacteria, go off your meds, and by golly you may end up right back where you were before you made those bodily/environmental changes in the first place.  If your *brain changed* when you made those other changes in habit/behaviour, why did it change back so precisely?   Had it ever really *changed* at all?  Or was it just responding differently to a different milieu/stimulus?
>> 
>> - Steve
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