[FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Tue May 5 19:30:41 EDT 2020

...or reminisce about a favorite meal/libation you enjoyed 37 years ago
while apprehending the Aurora Borealis at winter solstice in a northern
Finland resort that overlooks the Russian Landscape across the border...

How did you know?!!!   Joke.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, May 5, 2020, 5:27 PM Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

>
> On 5/5/20 4:38 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> "We record/observe *all* your behavior down to the minutest level... " is
> impossible.
>
> Some of my work (not so much these days) has been in light-field capture
> as well as holography... so my metaphorical target domain comes from a
> fairly specific technical perspective.
>
> Of course "recording/observing *all* of your behaviour" is as impossible
> as it is impossible to "record all impinging interfering light waves as
> silver halide crystals on a photographic plate", so even a high-quality
> hologram is just  a "fuzzy facsimile"... the point isn't fidelity as much
> as it is that a lot more *qualities* of information are available to BE
> recorded than we normally record (e.g. focusing nominally parallel light
> rays reflected off an object through a lens onto a similar photographic
> plate).   The hologram doesn't necessarily contain more data (limited by
> the grain size of the silver-halide film and the quality of the optical
> elements moving the light around as well as the wavelength of the light)
> than a conventional photograph, it is just *qualitatively* more
> interesting/complex than the impingement of a planar wave onto a plane (or
> the integrated fusing of hundreds of such captures from hundreds of lenses
> or pinholes) (think phased array radar in the optical spectra).
>
> I defer to your broader/deeper experience and awareness of conventional
> psychology, but I suppose what I was alluding to is the difference between
> a "gestalt" and a "diagnosis"?   A good intuitive therapist, NLP
> practitioner, car-salesman, "psychic", etc.   (I contend) can "read" a LOT
> more than a bureaucrat screening for a particular purpose.   I'm simply
> borrowing Glen's reference to "holographically" to elaborate the nature of
> that.
>
> Meanwhile, I agree strongly with you that a great deal of your internal
> state (second by second) is operationally opaque to me and everyone else
> who might try to observe, including Marcus when he wires you up with
> Neuralink hardware or locks you into an fMRI while you fantasize about your
> next car or reminisce about a favorite meal/libation you enjoyed 37 years
> ago while apprehending the Aurora Borealis at winter solstice in a northern
> Finland resort that overlooks the Russian Landscape across the border.  I
> also know from my own musings and reminiscings that *my* memories can vary
> from time to time (and from an objective observation like a microphone or
> camera capturing those aspects of a situation).
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2020, 4:13 PM Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 5/5/20 3:04 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>> Dammit, Nick.  I can and frequently do spend hours planning, remembering,
>> composing emails, fantasizing about my next car, etc  without exhibiting
>> any remarkable behavior beyond eyeblinking, touching my face (don't!),
>> crossing and uncrossing my legs.  We've been through this before but  what
>> is my latest plan about what to do when my auto lease is up?  No one knows
>> but me despite your claim that I don't have private access to these kinds
>> of things.
>>
>> And following (weakly I am sure) Glen's reference to "holographically", I
>> believe that if we record/observe *all* of your behaviour down to the
>> minutest detail, we can learn a LOT about that inner state.    If we had
>> that data from the *last* time you approached buying a new car (maybe years
>> out) we might recognize the specific patterns of leg-crossing and
>> eye-blinking and chair-leaning that go with fantasizing about that
>> muscle-car inspired anti-proton powered 6 wheel-drive hub-motor flying car
>> you have been jonesing on!
>>
>> I'm somewhat with Glen (as I understand him in this conversation) on the
>> ideation that inner and outer is somewhat mutable.    Sometimes the 6-rotor
>> flying drone-car I fantasize (and blame on Frank) flitting around in is
>> *part of* *me* and other times it is what I interface *to* and *it*
>> interfaces (mostly) to the air (and sometimes to the water, the ground, and
>> unfortunately a tall tree here and there).    When I am composing a message
>> *to* this august body named FriAM, I often think of youse alls as
>> "external" to me, but if I'm talking to one of the philistines in my life
>> who do NOT spend all their time talking/thinking about these kinds of
>> things (whatever these kinds are), I sometimes think of myself as being
>> *of* "the FriAM" rather than "in the FriAM" (or is that FriAM pan?).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:36 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,Glen,
>>>
>>> Careful.  Isn't the formulation "inner world" entirely contradictory?
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>> Clark University
>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:50 PM
>>> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve
>>>
>>> However, I think we can come up with a (maybe someday) testable
>>> hypothesis based on hidden states. In principle, if EricC's principle is
>>> taken seriously, the inner world of a black box device will be *completely*
>>> represented on its surface (ala the holographic principle). Any information
>>> not exhibited by a black box's *behavior* will be lost/random.
>>>
>>> This implies something about the compressibility and information content
>>> of the black box's behavior, right?
>>>
>>> On 5/5/20 10:38 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>>> > This does not advance an argument against the possibility of a
>>> computer thinking — merely an assertion that "behavior" is not a valid
>>> basis upon which to argue that they do.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ☣ uǝlƃ
>>>
>>> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .-
>>> ... .... . ...
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam unsubscribe
>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC>
>>> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .-
>>> ... .... . ...
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC>
>>> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Frank Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 505 670-9918
>>
>> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>
>> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ...
>> .... . ...
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>
>
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ...
> .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20200505/f81633a7/attachment-0001.html>