[FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve
Steven A Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Tue May 5 19:26:50 EDT 2020
On 5/5/20 4:38 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> "We record/observe *all* your behavior down to the minutest level... "
> is impossible.
Some of my work (not so much these days) has been in light-field capture
as well as holography... so my metaphorical target domain comes from a
fairly specific technical perspective.
Of course "recording/observing *all* of your behaviour" is as impossible
as it is impossible to "record all impinging interfering light waves as
silver halide crystals on a photographic plate", so even a high-quality
hologram is just a "fuzzy facsimile"... the point isn't fidelity as
much as it is that a lot more *qualities* of information are available
to BE recorded than we normally record (e.g. focusing nominally parallel
light rays reflected off an object through a lens onto a similar
photographic plate). The hologram doesn't necessarily contain more
data (limited by the grain size of the silver-halide film and the
quality of the optical elements moving the light around as well as the
wavelength of the light) than a conventional photograph, it is just
*qualitatively* more interesting/complex than the impingement of a
planar wave onto a plane (or the integrated fusing of hundreds of such
captures from hundreds of lenses or pinholes) (think phased array radar
in the optical spectra).
I defer to your broader/deeper experience and awareness of conventional
psychology, but I suppose what I was alluding to is the difference
between a "gestalt" and a "diagnosis"? A good intuitive therapist, NLP
practitioner, car-salesman, "psychic", etc. (I contend) can "read" a
LOT more than a bureaucrat screening for a particular purpose. I'm
simply borrowing Glen's reference to "holographically" to elaborate the
nature of that.
Meanwhile, I agree strongly with you that a great deal of your internal
state (second by second) is operationally opaque to me and everyone else
who might try to observe, including Marcus when he wires you up with
Neuralink hardware or locks you into an fMRI while you fantasize about
your next car or reminisce about a favorite meal/libation you enjoyed 37
years ago while apprehending the Aurora Borealis at winter solstice in a
northern Finland resort that overlooks the Russian Landscape across the
border. I also know from my own musings and reminiscings that *my*
memories can vary from time to time (and from an objective observation
like a microphone or camera capturing those aspects of a situation).
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2020, 4:13 PM Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com
> <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
>
>
> On 5/5/20 3:04 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> Dammit, Nick. I can and frequently do spend hours planning,
>> remembering, composing emails, fantasizing about my next car,
>> etc without exhibiting any remarkable behavior beyond
>> eyeblinking, touching my face (don't!), crossing and uncrossing
>> my legs. We've been through this before but what is my latest
>> plan about what to do when my auto lease is up? No one knows but
>> me despite your claim that I don't have private access to these
>> kinds of things.
>
> And following (weakly I am sure) Glen's reference to
> "holographically", I believe that if we record/observe *all* of
> your behaviour down to the minutest detail, we can learn a LOT
> about that inner state. If we had that data from the *last*
> time you approached buying a new car (maybe years out) we might
> recognize the specific patterns of leg-crossing and eye-blinking
> and chair-leaning that go with fantasizing about that muscle-car
> inspired anti-proton powered 6 wheel-drive hub-motor flying car
> you have been jonesing on!
>
> I'm somewhat with Glen (as I understand him in this conversation)
> on the ideation that inner and outer is somewhat mutable.
> Sometimes the 6-rotor flying drone-car I fantasize (and blame on
> Frank) flitting around in is *part of* *me* and other times it is
> what I interface *to* and *it* interfaces (mostly) to the air (and
> sometimes to the water, the ground, and unfortunately a tall tree
> here and there). When I am composing a message *to* this august
> body named FriAM, I often think of youse alls as "external" to me,
> but if I'm talking to one of the philistines in my life who do NOT
> spend all their time talking/thinking about these kinds of things
> (whatever these kinds are), I sometimes think of myself as being
> *of* "the FriAM" rather than "in the FriAM" (or is that FriAM pan?).
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:36 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,Glen,
>>
>> Careful. Isn't the formulation "inner world" entirely
>> contradictory?
>>
>> N
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:50 PM
>> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve
>>
>> However, I think we can come up with a (maybe someday)
>> testable hypothesis based on hidden states. In principle, if
>> EricC's principle is taken seriously, the inner world of a
>> black box device will be *completely* represented on its
>> surface (ala the holographic principle). Any information not
>> exhibited by a black box's *behavior* will be lost/random.
>>
>> This implies something about the compressibility and
>> information content of the black box's behavior, right?
>>
>> On 5/5/20 10:38 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>> > This does not advance an argument against the possibility
>> of a computer thinking — merely an assertion that "behavior"
>> is not a valid basis upon which to argue that they do.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ☣ uǝlƃ
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Frank Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 505 670-9918
>>
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