[FRIAM] Metaphor [POSSIBLE DISTRACTON FROM]: privacy games

[Steve Smith]

Frank -
> My first  reaction:  I don't think "bent space time" is a metaphor.  I
> don't use metaphor in thought because I know exactly what I "mean".
unless space-time is a plastic/elastic solid (solid aether?), I'm not
sure what the phrase means if not metaphorically?  If I want to talk
about space-time in this way more rigorously, I would not "bend" it, I
would describe it's geometry as non-euclidean.   I would claim that we
metaphorically "bend" space-time *relative* to the idealized euclidean
space we all (most all?) apprehend somewhat directly (though our visual
system apprehends space in perspective geometry where objects are
consistently smaller by a factor of 1/r where r is their distance from
us).  Sound is somewhat more complicated but also has a 1/r component.   

> I'm not even sure I use language in thought except when I'm planning
> an email, for instance.
Frank/Eric -

I do agree that the idea of "metaphors all the way down" shift a little
across this boundary.   A lot of my own "thinking" is not explicitly
linguistic, but it *is* imagistic and involves analogs (analogies?),
much like an analog computer (of which there are many modes and
examples, not all electronic) operates perhaps?    I think I related
here that I was dreaming in "celestial mechanics" for a while.  I don't
know enough details about celestial mechanics to believe I was really
honestly "calculating" orbits and orbit-changes, etc... in any
useful/literal way,  I was just "experiencing" what it *might* be like
to somewhat directly control thrusters with conserved energy and
reaction mass whilst "feeling" energetic isoclines in delta-v/gravity
space.  

I didn't experience "bent space" so much as the same kind of dissonance
I feel when I try to think of great-circle navigation on a map  or even
more entertaining/complicated, whilst in the context of winds
(sailing/flying) and currents/tides.   My visual site-lines serve me
fairly well, up to the curvature of the earth, which would continue to
serve me well in interplanetary scale locomotion/navigation, yet if my
propulsion method includes a solar-sail (and/or magnetic induction aspects)

I think that "metaphor" is used more in science to communicate with
outsiders and as shorthand (e.g. "bent" spacetime) among insiders.  This
is where I will defer my language to Glen's appeals to switch to (my
idea of what he would ask for) analogy, formal analogy, mathematical
models, formal mappings within mathematical formulations.   My only shot
for metaphor at this level is to refer to Lakoff/Nunez's "Where
Mathematics Comes From" which I claim provides a good argument for how
even mathematics is technically/fundamentally metaphorical.  But rather
than insist on that (for no good reason), I am happy to converge on the
use of the other (analogy, model, mapping) terms.  I think Glen asked me
for something like this directly offlist many months ago and I can't
remember if I actually said out loud that I was accepting that.  (I hope
I am characterizing Glen's position and our interaction accurately).

- Steve

> Eric Charles wrote:
>
>     I'm not sure I follow all the different sticking points this
>     conversation has developed... but I'm gonna risk punch the tar
>     baby anyway...
>
>     I'm not sure Glen's point about "xyz" gets us very far. Sure, you
>     can call anything you want by any label you want. I'm not sure
>     anyone disputes that. But after that there remain three-ish
>     different issues, which I think Nick tends to muddle: 
>
>     1) The role of metaphor in communication.
>     2) The role of metaphor in thought.
>     3) The role of metaphor in science.
>
>

>
>     Did I punch the tar baby enough? Am I hopelessly stuck? Or did I
>     possibly help accomplish anything?
>
Tar Babies R Us! 

I think you accomplished something for me... your 3 domains above are
useful to me and I hope my response registered somewhat to them, with
Frank's counter/example of "bent space" is helpful to you or others.

I will leave the "toe/tow the line" metaphors alone here.  I find the
*expanded* etymology of metaphors fascinating, especially when
juxtoposed phonographically as is this pair, but do think it is probably
a distraction from the point at hand.

- Steve

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