[FRIAM] God in Science and Religion (was Re: why some people hate cops)

[Steve Smith]

Stephen wrote:
> I also saw it as an opportunity freeze it in the spotlight to be
> studied. There is a hatred and disdain of religion by many in the
> "scientific" community. I find it misplaced and hope this dialectic
> tension between the religious and scientific may soon resolve in a
> modern synthesis of Science and Religion.

I fall down in trying to interpret most if not all of the language of
the Anthropomorphised "Higher Power", and even the "Higher Power" talk
evokes in me the myriad extant very human failed ways of ordering and
understanding society.


>
> Marcus, consider the following from Max Planck:
>
>     *"Both religion and science require a belief in God. For
>     believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists He is at
>     the end of all considerations… To the former He is the foundation,
>     to the latter, the crown of the edifice of every generalized world
>     view.*
>
It doesn't surprise me that the Grand Old Men of Science from as early
as the Enlightenment but more notably the Fathers of Modern Physics
would be steeped in, and not (openly?) questioning the metaphorical
target domain of a patriarchal Heaven over Earth.   I was not raised
with much of that, though it was in the water (more like flouride than
selenium) so I am neither acutely reactive to it, but neither can I find
traction to use it as a starting point.  As for me, I have to decode the
anthropomorphisms into something much more neutral (risking losing
important nuance) before I can re-encode it into something relevant for
myself.

I DO find it a very interesting, even fundamental question... but
possibly too general to make useful without further refinement.*
*

My own preferred reference embedding is closer to the greek   Cosmos,
Logos, Chaos, Mythos... but that may fall dead on many as well.

- Steve*
*

PS. I probably won't make vFriam but I do think the in-person, verbal
mode, works well/differently for many, so I look forward to some
tangential motion through the convening of "the Mother Church" to use
Nick's idiom.*
*

>
> As the father of Action in quantum physics, can you glimpse where he
> might be pointing with "every generalized world view"? Even if you
> can't follow him, could you tolerate those that do? Here's more
> context for the above i from Planck's Wikipedia
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck#Religious_views>. Please
> give it some reflection - it's only 7 paragraphs :-)
>
>     Planck was a member of the Lutheran Church in Germany.[36] He was
>     very tolerant towards alternative views and religions.[37] In a
>     lecture in 1937 entitled "Religion und Naturwissenschaft"
>     (Religion and Natural Science) he suggested the importance of
>     these symbols and rituals related directly with a believer's
>     ability to worship God, but that one must be mindful that the
>     symbols provide an imperfect illustration of divinity. He
>     criticized atheism for being focused on the derision of such
>     symbols, while at the same time warned of the over-estimation of
>     the importance of such symbols by believers.[38]
>
>     Planck was tolerant and favorable to all religions. Although he
>     remained in the Lutheran Church, he did not promote Christian or
>     Biblical views. He believed "the faith in miracles must yield,
>     step by step, before the steady and firm advance of the facts of
>     science, and its total defeat is undoubtedly a matter of time." [39]
>
>     In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft", Planck
>     expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that
>     "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the
>     holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much
>     importance to what are merely symbols. He was a churchwarden from
>     1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing,
>     beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both
>     science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism
>     and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal
>     "toward God!"[39]
>
>     Planck said in 1944, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to
>     the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell
>     you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no
>     matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of
>     a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and
>     holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must
>     assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and
>     intelligent spirit (orig. geist). This spirit is the matrix of all
>     matter."[40]
>
>     Planck regarded the scientist as a man of imagination and
>     Christian faith. He said: "Both religion and science require a
>     belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for
>     physicists He is at the end of all considerations… To the former
>     He is the foundation, to the latter, the crown of the edifice of
>     every generalized world view".[41]
>
>     On the other hand, Planck wrote, "...'to believe' means 'to
>     recognize as a truth,' and the knowledge of nature, continually
>     advancing on incontestably safe tracks, has made it utterly
>     impossible for a person possessing some training in natural
>     science to recognize as founded on truth the many reports of
>     extraordinary occurrences contradicting the laws of nature, of
>     miracles which are still commonly regarded as essential supports
>     and confirmations of religious doctrines, and which formerly used
>     to be accepted as facts pure and simple, without doubt or
>     criticism. The belief in miracles must retreat step by step before
>     relentlessly and reliably progressing science and we cannot doubt
>     that sooner or later it must vanish completely."[42]
>
>     Later in life, Planck's views on God were that of a deist.[43] For
>     example, six months before his death a rumour started that he had
>     converted to Catholicism, but when questioned what had brought him
>     to make this step, he declared that, although he had always been
>     deeply religious, he did not believe "in a personal God, let alone
>     a Christian God".[44]
>
>
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