[FRIAM] semi-idle question

Sat Apr 24 17:10:08 EDT 2021

*" Why would a poor man sire significantly fewer children than a rich
man? "*
Good question, maybe my assumption is wrong?

It's not so much about the siring of the children as about the successful
raising of many children in the past.
My assumption is based on the fact that food was scarce and relatively
expensive. Poor families' children were malnutritioned and died more easily
from many types of illnesses. I'd love to find numbers to see if this is
true or false. I did a quick google search and found nothing.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 at 21:43, Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

>
> On 4/24/21 12:37 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> Up to maybe hundred years ago, a rich man could sire and raise ten
> children or more and many poor men none or at the most a few.
>
> Why would a poor man sire significantly fewer children than a rich man?
> Polygamy might have tipped the balance of available mates in favor of the
> rich and powerful, but otherwise war and other violence was tipping the
> balance toward every man having an opportunity to mate (assuming
> significant levels of monogamy).   Nutrition and health care (and
> stressors) might reduce the number of children a woman could (live) birth
> and raise to reproductive age, but I don't think the bias is less than 2:1
> on average?
>
> The key point is that genetic differences influenced the number of
> descendants a person had with the result that the conditions were there for
> natural selection and undoubtedly human beings evolved.
>
> Does this mean you believe that wealth was a direct correlation to some
> genetic feature?  Within strict class and even more acutely, blue-blood
> nobility/caste reproductive contexts, there is *some* correlation, but I
> think the unrecognized effects of over-inbreeding did more harm than good?
>
> I am willing to believe that high aggression may still have been selected
> for reproductively up into the industrial age, but I think that got
> sublimated into wealth and power collection more than reproductive
> fecundity (though I grant up to 2:1 advantage *through* acquired wealth).
> e.g Genghis hisself
> <http://malyarchuk-bor.narod.ru/olderfiles/1/RJG_3_07.pdf>
>
> Today however, genetic differences between people have very
> small influence on the number of their descendants so the conditions are
> very weak for natural selection. I conjure that if natural selection is
> happening today it is very small, maybe negligible?
> But if you look beyond natural selection and include gene editing, humans
> can of course evolve. I would be very surprised if there are not already
> some filthy rich people doing it in secret.
>
> With the ?8.6B? people on this planet, I suspect "if we can, someone
> is/has/will".   The previously linked article on Texas Ranchers cloning
> prize Bucks suggests to me that up to the practical challenges imposed by
> broad ethical concerns that human cloning has to be (nearly) as easy.
>
>
> https://www.deerassociation.com/action-alert-texas-captive-deer-cloning-h-b-1781/
>
> https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Deer-Clone-4542735.php
>
> and we DO have the Raëlians <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism>
> and Clonaid. <http://www.clonaid.com/>
>
> https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/05/dolly-cloning-sheep-anniversary/
>
>
> https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/21/human-reproductive-cloning-curious-incident-of-the-dog-in-the-night-time/
>
> my kids are too much like me already, we can barely get along as it is!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 at 20:32, Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>> DaveW -
>>
>> I think the eugenics movement(s) of the last century as well as the many
>> clan structures in indigenous peoples and royal bloodlines throughout
>> history have been structured with the aspiration of either inducing genetic
>> drift in a desired direction, or (in the case of clan structures and incest
>> taboos) perhaps mute it's worst outcomes.
>>
>> The divergence of Neandertalis/Devonisis/Sapiens presumed to have
>> happened hundreds of thousands of years ago and the
>> reconvergence/subsumption roughly 40,000 years ago seem to represent the
>> most *significant* evolution we know of among "modern" humans...    The
>> time-scales I consider in your questoin are on the order of hundreds of
>> years, not tens or hundreds of thousands.   That alone suggests to me that
>> we will not see anything we can measure as "evolution".   The divergence of
>> traits we identify as "race" seem to have happened over tens of thousands
>> of years as well.   From our experience with domestic animal breeding, we
>> probably have (refer to Eugenics literature) some sense of how many
>> generations it would take us to "breed in" or "breed out" various traits.
>>
>> As Marcus and other technophile/posthumanist proponents have indicated,
>> it seems that germline modification (e.g. CRISPR) is likely to become
>> acutely more significant (for the first world?) than any natural "drift",
>> much less evolution by natural selection.
>>
>>
>> And then all the ways we might entirely stunt/block evolution:
>>
>>
>> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-rancher-cloned-deer-lawmakers-want-legalize_n_607ef3e0e4b03c18bc29fdd2
>>
>> Who knew we had come this far from Dolly
>> <https://dolly.roslin.ed.ac.uk/facts/the-life-of-dolly/index.html>?
>>
>> Can species NOT involved in deliberate breeding programs (e.g. wild
>> things) evolve quickly enough to stay ahead of the anthropogenic changes
>> afoot?   I think the simple answer is "hell yes!" but the more interesting
>> relevant answer is sadly more like "barely" or "probably not hardly" if we
>> are talking about our favorite or photogenic species (large mammals,
>> colorful birds, ...  in particular).
>>
>> For better or worse, the large mammal strategies including high
>> mass/surface ratios also yield longer dependency and reproductive lags, so
>> while the bacteria might achieve population doubling in tens of minutes,
>> Whales, Elephants, Polar Bears and Humans have reproductive periods on the
>> order of decades.
>>
>> I think the Big Green Lie thread is asking if human *cultural* or
>> *social* evolution can be quick enough to avert the disasters we think
>> (some of us) we see looming on the near horizon.   A very specific
>> (engineered?) pandemic might yield a very acute selection pressure.
>>
>> In the wild, maybe in the niche areas where conditions are going out of
>> human survival range (e.g. dewpoint too high for human sweat-cooling to
>> maintain a temperature below the threshold for breakdown of enzymes (and
>> other metabolic macromolecules) will uncover/select-out those with
>> metabolisms more able to skirt that hairy edge...  but how many generations
>> of that kind of selection (without significant mixing with other
>> populations) would be required to see a coherent gene pool reflecting that
>> survival trait?   And with modern knowledge/travel/technology, the chances
>> of humans staying put and enduring those conditions and NOT
>> creating/importing some form of mechanical/chemical refrigeration (or just
>> moving into pit-houses coupled to the much lower temperature earth?)
>>
>> I'm definitely not going to depend on it!
>>
>> - Steve
>> On 4/24/21 10:50 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Well, it’s obviously both/and with trade-offs between.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see attached.  It’s short.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On
>> Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 23, 2021 9:21 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] semi-idle question
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave, I found this in Wikipedia:  "The social brain hypothesis was
>> proposed by British anthropologist Robin Dunbar
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dunbar>, who argues that human
>> intelligence did not evolve primarily as a means to solve ecological
>> problems, but rather as a means of surviving and reproducing in large and
>> complex social groups."
>>
>>
>>
>> That might explain why we are now leading our species off the cliff.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 7:12 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Can human beings evolve?
>>
>> Was reading about Pepper Moths in England during the Industrial
>> Revolution. (population genetics)
>>
>> Population was white with dark spots and the occasional dark colored moth
>> was easy prey.
>> Pollution killed lichen and caused the trees (moth's habitat) to be
>> covered in soot, turning them dark.
>> Population of black moths went from 2% in 1848 to 95% by 1895.
>>
>> Is is possible for humans to evolve in response to climate change in a
>> similar way? more general prevalence of melanin, craving for spicy hot food?
>>
>> Of course moths used many generations to achieve their change and their
>> lifespan is a fraction of a humans, so extinction is more likely than
>> adaptation. But, is it at least possible in principle?
>>
>> davew
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>>
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>
>>
>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>>
>> twitter: @merle110
>>
>>
>>
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