[FRIAM] Morphogenisis

Sun May 9 01:40:25 EDT 2021

Steve,  

Please have a look at the “Misappropriation of Teleonomy <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302329059_The_Misappropriation_of_Teleonomy> ”.  You might find it useful in distinguishing teleonomy from teleology.   Or not. 

N

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:21 PM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis

Stellar Eric!

Two observations:

  I recently learned the term "Teleonomic"  which I really like as an alternative to "Telelogical" in many cases.

  And what of the difference between "Light follows a shortest-time path through space" and "Light IS the shortest time path through space"?

Both of the latter may be wrong, but they are qualitatively different in an interesting way, no?

- Steve

On 5/8/21 9:13 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:

English has two categories of verbs: intransitive and transitive. 

If you use an intransitive verb — “yet it moves” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you coming: claiming you are representing volition.

If you use a transitive verb — “it is moved by gravity” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you going: claiming an agent/patient relation, where the agent is probably (metaphorically) God (!), or whatever God is a metaphor for.  

And we have from Ecclesiastes (the verse in praise of the Metaphor Nazi):

http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20(1)%3A%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9,new%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22 <http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If there be nothing new (1): Compare Ecclesiastes 1.9,new thing under the sun.> 

Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun."

To which the scientist (note small “s”) would like to assert “the language of mechanics is not English; speaking it is a new practice available to people to participate in”.

But let Shakespeare have the last word:

If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss
The second burthen of a former child!
O, that record could with a backward look,
Even of five hundred courses of the sun,
Show me your image in some antique book,
Since mind at first in character was done!
That I might see what the old world could say
To this composed wonder of your frame;
Whether we are mended, or whe'r better they,
Or whether revolution be the same.
O! sure I am, the wits of former days
To subjects worse have given admiring praise.

Eric

On May 9, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm> > wrote:

The ball accelerated is clearly a metaphor as it implies that the ball is doing a specific thing, that the ball has behavior and probably volition. This is clearly not what you literally mean.

davew

On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

"The ball accelerated at  approximately 32 feet per second squared at sea level in a vacuum."

doesn't seem to be a metaphor to me.

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, May 8, 2021, 3:07 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Listen, Fella!

It’s metaphors all the way down!

[shoe thrown]

n

Nick Thompson

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From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:36 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis

First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my head) :-)

Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me like "following a script". 

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

This struck me: 

When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow ball of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations, decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue. Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further shape gestation. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily> &utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily

First, note the reliance on psychological terms.  This is the sort of passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel, psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.”  And don’t any of you DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.”  

Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you wizards mean by computation.  Is carrying out an algorithm  more like “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb “computed”?  If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the language of computation.   I know.  Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. 

Your loyal fool, 

Nic 

Nick Thompson

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