[FRIAM] Wolpert - discussion thread placeholder

[Frank Wimberly]

My erstwhile boss Raj Reddy was in the same Department with Simon and
Newell and knew their work well.  He said that it was relatively easy to
create a computer program that did the work of a professor that the real
challenge would be to develop an autonomous bulldozer.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 11:37 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Wolpert's questions are fantastic. Thanks glen for prompting this
> discussion.
>
> Re: question one about the "chasm with minimal cognitive capabilities
> necessary ..."
>
> I have two major problems with the assumptions behind this question.
>
> First, the assumption that Godel, Einstein, and Beethoven exemplify
> 'greater' (in some sense of that word) cognitive abilities. This is
> analogous the the AI notions advanced by Newel and Simon that they had
> succeeded in creating a thinking machine because the thinking reproduced
> was that of university professors. They thought that the way they thought
> was the apex of human thinking. A much greater challenge— still avoided,
> even by the most sophisticated ML approaches — is how a baby is able to
> learn and extract meaning from a chaotic cacophony of inputs.
>
> Second, that the cognitive capabilities of pre-Holocene humans were
> "minimal." The most pernicious myth with regard our long ago ancestors
> derive from either Rousseau or Hobbes—both of whom conjectured, with no
> evidence, that our ancestors existed in a primitive state—Edenic for
> Rousseau, and brutish for Hobbes, but simplistically primitive.
>
> Quite the opposite was true. The world was far more complex and
> challenging, with everything from social relations to 'food chemistry'
> (e.g. brewing beer) to explanations of why everything in the world was as
> it was being highly variable across population groups and constantly in
> flux. A bit analogous to the baby making sense of the world.
>
> Humans today are able to "survive" primarily because of tens of thousands
> of years accumulation of "culture." Because we have that resource, we do
> not have to figure out if that nice striped quadruped over there will eat
> me; or, if that red berry will kill me but the other red berry is essential
> for a great BLT.
>
> It might be possible to make an argument: Godel, et. al., were able to do
> what they did because 'culture' reduced the daily (hourly, millisecond-ly)
> cognitive load such that it was possible to put the 'surplus' to work on
> issues of math and music; but, not that there was any kind of qualitative
> or quantitative difference in cognitive abilities of humans then and now.
>
> to be continued ...
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022, at 8:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> > DaveW -
> >> Just wanted to put this here as a placeholder for future conversation
> as I would like to take up Wolpert's questions even though I am not
> "miraculous" per glen's invitation.  I do need a day to two to read and
> pose questions /make observations, but others might be ready to chime in
> with observations right away.
> >
> > always ready to "chime" at the drop of a dime here...
> >
> > I look forward to your more considered responses.  I hope my own chimes
> > aren't more mud than water...
> >
> >
> >
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