[FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

Tue Dec 8 15:16:43 EST 2020

It amused me that you two were so invested in this argument (that we’ve witnessed over the years directly and tangentially), that on your deathbeds you’d be shaking your fists about it.   Obviously it was not “abuse”.  It seems silly to me because if one want to understand the functioning of the brain, one would experiment on it like Hubel and Wiesel did, and like Neuralink is poised to do.

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest.  Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him.  During the first year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I took a course in cognitive processes.  One of the themes of that course was the failure of behaviorism.  That approach was described to us as an early 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that the result was a realization that that was not possible.  After a  year I became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer science.

When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what he meant by that.  And my recollection is that he said that he thought that people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings and beliefs from their behavior.  I found this to be anathema because to me my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with certainty.  Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.

We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and generally had an enjoyable friendship.  We cooperated on the Santa Fe Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University.  That book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit privately before joining the meeting.

Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test.  He then mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him.  I knew he had been feeling badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from Bonnet's Syndrome.  Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the topic.  If so, I apologize again.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago.  In retrospect,  I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully,  to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically.  Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming.  The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and  blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist.  Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain.  I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM

> To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

>

> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.

>

> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies.  I am hoping that you didn't find it so.  Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

--

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