[FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Fri Nov 12 12:55:07 EST 2021
As an erstwhile tennis player, I have to say "spin matters"... when the
ball comes over the net and I set my feet and body to return it, swing
my racket with optimal trajectory to intercept it, all that would seem
to matter is "Is my perception of the trajectory of the ball true, and
will my racket intercept it in the 'sweet spot' such that I can return
it well?" Up to the *spin* on the ball, all that "truth of
trajectory" is accurate. Frank may note that the spin on the ball *on
the bounce* is more important than the spin when it hits my racket,
which just changes the calculus of the "truth of the trajectory" to "pre
bounce", but still holds.
When Nick offers these "factoids" about China's behaviour, posture,
claims, which Epoch Times or DJT might have relayed as well, I would
claim that they have a "spin" on them which is either detectible in the
flight of the ball (aerodynamics) or it's bounce, but ultimately on how
it responds to my racket when I try to return (or perhaps just deflect
or capture it?). Observing DJT/Epoch/NST's racket action as the ball
leaves gives me some good hints about spin, as well as aerodynamic
flight, bounce, etc. Also knowing NST/AlanWakim/GEPR/DJT's history with
various shots they may make gives me some hints as to whether the
arm/wrist/racket flourish was actually the spin I percieved or some
other spin I might be spoofed into expecting.
So I guess the point is more "Partial Truth". Nick's list of factoids
might be arguable, and the context in which they are offered might also
be arguable, but more important to me is "what is the thesis, and what
is the intent?". DJT and Wakim are likely to be trying to generate a
certain kind of fear/judgement that they then can use to further one or
more facets of an agenda we don't trust and perhaps implicitly fear.
NST is more likely (my judgement/guess) to be honest in any
fear-mongering/awfulizing I might attribute to him... he truly is
worried that the Red Scare monster stories of his youth are in fact real
and coming true (perhaps DJT and Wakim have some real fear going on as
well). GEPR (in my experience) is more likely "just" stirring the pot,
trying to get a more interesting conversation going, and if he has an
agenda to try to convince us of something with those volleys across the
net, that agenda is somewhat contingent and episodic? and likely to
defer to a larger agenda which might well have a strong component of
curiosity and playfulness in pursuit of that curiosity, even if the
balls sting when they smack you (maybe racketball is more the correct
target domain?).
So... back to Nick... Are you steelmanning or strawmanning
China/Xi/CCP/etc or is there a tin/copper/bronze/steelman you could
offer that isn't Red Scare all the way down?
"Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get
you"
I'm not trying to claim that there is nothing to be askeered of from
China, but rather more that what we are likely to flinch away from on
the face of their statements and actions may well not be the most useful
thing to prioritize, and may be a ploy to make us flinch while they put
something entirely different past us.
Also in the spirit of Jijitsu or Aikido, it makes a bit more sense to
understand what one's opponent is *actually* intending/doing/capable of
and responding to that more as a "dance" than a confrontation. I'm
interested in how we (western civ?) can "dance" with the East (far and
near) rather than how we can dominate or beat them down. The world is
too small (IMO) to make it into a cage-fight rink (or ThunderDome) if we
have the opportunity to turn it more into a dance hall or better yet an
extended EcoSystem in which humans are (for better or worse) dominant
elements.
gRumble,
- Steve
On 11/12/21 10:09 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Well trolled! It’s time for me to turn of the news for a while. I am
> even closer to hysteria than usual.
>
> I want to say it shouldn’t MATTER who said it; it should only matter
> whether it’s true or not. It’s the “true,shmoo
> <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/this-website-works-better-in-microsoft-edge-160fa918-d581-4932-9e4e-1075c4713595?ui=en-us&rs=en-us&ad=us>!”
> move that drives me crazy. I concede that complexity thinking should
> turn us all into hopeless dyonesians, but I will not have it!
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Friday, November 12, 2021 9:46 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological
> studies of bird flocks
>
> Nick,
>
> Nothing you say below or said in the original post is false. All are
> true. Trump could not have written what you wrote, he lacks the
> literacy as well as the ability to avoid "hyperisms" in his speech.
>
> However ... each of your points about the Chinese in both posts have
> been stated by Trump; albeit in his distorted/garbled playground bully
> vernacular.
>
> The Epoch Times is a Falun Gong mouthpiece with a huge anti-China
> bias. Nevertheless it has/does publish essays and news pieces that
> also state, just as eloquently as do you, the same points and warnings
> about what China is doing and why.
>
> What I am teasing you (trolling with a huge smile on my face because I
> think the world of you) about — via the ad hominen — is the fact that
> "truth" (non-falsity) of the statements made are somehow made
> dependent on the identity of the messenger. When Trump or the Epoch
> Times makes the statements they are racist cant, but when Nick states
> them, they are wisdom to paid attention to.
>
> davew
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 10:11 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> So, ad hominem aside, which of the assertions I made are false.
> Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak? Is pressure not
> increasing on the Taiwanese? Are islands not being built and
> fortified in the international waters around China? Are the
> Uighurs not being confined in work camps? Are the Chinese not
> massively deploying surveillance technology? Look, I don’t hold
> it against the Chinese. Given our behavior in the last decade, I
> think a very good case can be made for the superiority of
> authoritarian rule in the avoidance of economic and social chaos.
> If democracies are capable of producing Hitlers and Trumps and the
> current Turkish and Hungarian leaders, which exactly IS their
> special call on our loyalty. Could that loyalty just be so much
> romantic twaddle. The democratical citizens of Athens murdered an
> entire defenseless city of their fellow Greeks—put them to the
> sword, I believe is how Thucydides put it. I don’t happen to
> agree with the argument, but I don’t have to think of the Chinese
> as some hideous yellow peril to believe that they sincerely
> believe it. I just have to think that they are expanding, as we
> did after the cold war, into a vacuum left by our own sudden
> ambivalence concerning our own values. I don’t believe that Trump
> could have written the above, but even if he could, a stopped
> clock has to be right two times a day (or only once, if it is a
> twenty four our clock.)
>
> I would love to believe that I am wrong about any of this.
> Democracies are caving all over the world and I think it’s fair to
> say that a majority of americans have given up on the idea as well.
>
> The one thing I am desperately naïve about and that complexity
> denies is that it is valuable to think ahead, to plan, to share
> plans with fellow citizens, and to follow some fair rules for
> arriving at a consensus, being ever vigilant for the perils of mob
> psychology and group think, before taking action. All of that is
> in peril, right now, and when the history is written it will have
> been us that let it happen.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof
> David West
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 9:39 PM
>
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological
> studies of bird flocks
>
> Nick, get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!
>
> I have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph from the
> mouth of the Donald, and seen the exact same notions discussed, ad
> nauseam, in Glen's favorite newspaper, /The Epoch Times./ [Don't
> shoot me glen, it is a joke.]
>
> davew
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 11:57 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> Well, I may be the victim of recent “neo- (aka archeo-)
> liberal” pod casts, but I really get the impression that the
> Chinese are going for it, boasting a Chinese Exceptionalism
> every bit as toxic as the one we have espoused. From their
> point of view, this moment in history is the analogue of our
> moment after WW two. They are ready to move ahead and there
> is nobody “out there” with the organization or resources to
> oppose them. Why would they not take the opportunity? The
> age of sino-hegemony is upon us. We either pull our socks up
> politically or settle down to be the new Yugoslavia.
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steve
> Smith
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:58 AM
>
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in
> ethological studies of bird flocks
>
> Nick -
>
> I asked this because the style of your statement felt like it
> had the flavor of Cold War Rhetoric which I was (also) raised
> on. I (want to) think something more sophisticated (and
> interesting) is afoot today and that while I don't want to
> fall into the low-entropy stylization implied by this CCP
> Spectre, I *do* want to believe (or seek) something good that
> the CCP "great experiment" might have found while we were on
> our NeoLiberal hyperCapitalism "great experiment". Is there
> room to learn something (humanist/humanitarian) from them? I
> believe StephenG's familiarity with China in modern times (as
> well as others) may offer us some parallax?
>
> - Steve
>
> On 11/11/21 10:42 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> No. You are right on target for the thread. My
> understanding of the present Government is that it is
> absolutely convinced that the centralist, technological,
> authoritarian model of government superior to other models
> and that this is their time to demonstrate that
> superiority. I can really imagine some CCP leaders
> reading this research and thinking, “mmmmmmmmm! THAT’S
> interesting. In my back yard, back in the sixties, there
> was a teensy little CIA research station figuring out how
> to get animals –dogs, ravens, pigeons, donkeys,
> what-have-you, to carry bombs for them, using a
> combination of training and neural implants. When the
> gave up the project, they left behind two gigantic glass
> carboys filled with pickled dogs heads.
>
> The Shadow Knows.
>
> Nick
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com>
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:22 AM
>
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in
> ethological studies of bird flocks
>
> Nick -
>
> Chinese science moves ahead in the development of the
> ideal society.
>
> I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to ask if
> you are being flip in this statement? Can you say more
> about what you think the Chinese gov't/people/culture
> might be "trying" to do, either overtly, or implicitly by
> simply following their individual goals/interests/desires?
>
> I believe that the collective dynamics between
> Nations/Peoples are what is dominating the
> movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not genetic) and
> that it is like an N-body problem in complexity and
> subtlety but is effected primarily through network relations.
>
> Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the more
> important "memes" (I think this is a useful but risky
> metaphorical binding that Dawkins coined for us most of a
> career (for me) ago) are those that are _regulatory_ which
> is why the likes of Trump and Bannon and Stone and the
> whole cabal of supervillians we are coping with these days
> focus on things like "fake news!" and "big lie!", etc.
> In the spirit of McLuhan, "the medium IS the message", the
> medium itself becomes the _thing to manipulate_ like
> trying to disrupt the news credibility and the election
> process as well as becoming the definition of a tweetHole,
> and using Facebook to disseminate dysInfo etc.
>
> I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying to
> talk about birds and flocking and experimental techniques
> for studying same... if you do feel inclined to answer,
> it is probably best to rethread.
>
> https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml
>
> If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the flock,
> you can make the flock do loop-di-loops by commanding
> the robo-pigeon to loop. If subordinate, the
> loop-di-looping behavior of the robopigeon has no
> effect on the flock. A robo-pigeon is one with a
> brain implant and pigeons are operated on AFTER their
> dominance in the flock has been determined.
>
> I hope I have this all right.
>
> Nick
>
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