[FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy

Mon Feb 7 12:58:40 EST 2022

Hi.  I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the Hydrogen discussion is
close to my day to day.

Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be kick the can as
Steve mentioned.  It is something that might be economically feasible in
the 2030s and so the length of time oil companies sell oil increases.
Having said that, there are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects
getting funded.  That might be showing how profitable the O&G industry is.

I'm working with a company we call Breeze <http://www.breezesqueeze.com>.
It uses compressed air in pipelines to move turbines at power plants.
Without fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of attention.
There are many advantages such as cold air where compressed air is released
that can be used by data centers.  25% of all GHGs come from generating
electricity.  45% of all water used in the US is used to create
electricity.

We see this as a better option than Hydrogen.  We do think Hydrogen fuel
cells are a solution for mobile applications.

Mike Orshan

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

>
> On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
>
> https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/
>
>     *Low-cost fossil fuel resources are finite. Someday it will simply
> not be possible to burn oil, natural gas, and coal for the affordable heat,
> electricity, and motive power humans need to power their prosperous
> societies. *
>
> Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in terms of
> geographical/geometric, material and energy consumption/appropriation are
> requisite to continuing/growing a "prosperous society"?   Tangentially (or
> not), if "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1 ratio of CO2 production to H2 but
> often begins with fossil fuels, it is obviously yet another "kick the can
> down the road" solution.   Harvesting solar and direct-solar/lunar-derived
> energy (including wind, tidal) and channeling it through our living
> (including technological infrastructure and agri-industry) systems to yield
> high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of magnitude more sustainable
> (if still questionable on some very long time-scale limited by a
> Dyson-Sphere-like-limit).    If the H2 is created by cracking H20 (and
> capturing both to be recombined later to release energy) using solar (and
> other renewables) energy it is a *closed cycle*.  One would presume the
> total amount of H2 we would have stored/
>
> From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of "island syndrome" which
> can include island dwarfism and poikilothermy which are both driven by
> reducing the demand on finite resources without giving up function or
> complexity.
>
> From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick Downsizing
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot> which postulates
> by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~= 12:1 in 1 dimension,
> 144:1 in cross section and 1728:1 in volume/mass... )  the movie implies no
> change in metabolic rates which would nominally speed up with "shrinkage",
> yielding (also) shorter lifespans.   Oh well.. Fiction.   But the point
> would seem well taken... Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our
> *current* energy/mass burden on her systems.
>
> I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting that our 0th order
> instinct is growth, and supralinear if at all possible, up to and likely
> achieving Kurzweillian asymptotic resource consumption.
>
> On that note, I believe that the myriad technological singularity concepts
> all point toward increased complexity  and downscaling to extend the use of
> material and energy, driving up the effective collective metabolism of "the
> system" and paradoxically *increasing* the rate at which we approach any of
> the jillion ecophagic gray-goo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo>-like
> scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive.
>
> I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers have already
> studied the multi-scale *structure* of negative entropy profiles in complex
> systems-of-systems.   I think Glen has his ear closer to that rail than
> some here?  EricS? ??? I'm still fascinated in the topic but gave up my
> little-toenail-purchase in the community in the early 2000s - Symbiotic
> Intelligence ALifeVI
> <https://cseweb.ucsd.edu//~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html>.   This reads so
> naive yet (mildly) prophetic now...
>
> All is lost! Flee the solar system!
>
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> 
>
> Grey hydrogen?
>
>
> https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/
>
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