[FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

Wed Jul 20 19:28:38 EDT 2022

Smiths, et alii ...

I find this thread-bit a nice complement to the point Marcus made many 
weeks ago... confronting my assumption that 
consciousness/intelligence/creativity (can't remember precisely which 
subject was in play at the moment) was "anything more than imitation". /
/

/    "All Art is Derivative"/?

I think there is something afoot here which I can only (because I lack 
imagination, and even when I notice I'm being derivative, I cannot help 
but continue?) characterize (gesturally) what I think Terrence Deacon is 
going on about with his neologisms: "Ententional" and "Absential" and by 
extension "Teleodynamic" 
<https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/deacon/>.

I could blather on for paragraphs with my weak grasp of what he is going 
on about, but instead will leave it... "¿absent?".   I believe this is 
in your (Eric's) Wheelhouse, rhyming with Morowitz's "Pruning".

As I am wont to do, I happen to be reading simultaneously with Deacon, a 
work of fiction by Ruth Ozeki, "The Book of Form and Emptiness"  where 
one of her characters (a wheelchair bound homeless poet) instructs her 
protagonist with:

    /"Poetry is a problem of form and emptiness, Ze moment i put one
    word onto an empty page, I have created a problem for myself. Ze
    poem that emerges is form trying to find a solution to my problem."/

It is a ¿coincidence? that these two books crawling through me right now 
are on the same subject in some sense?  All of this has bubble-sorted 
"The Origin and Nature of Life 
<https://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/physics/biological-physics-and-soft-matter-physics/origin-and-nature-life-earth-emergence-fourth-geosphere?format=HB>" 
to the top of my stack, about 5 years overdue.  I must read faster, or 
more in parallel or allow my dopple-selves across the quantum-multiverse 
to merge more-better?
//

Regarding your (Cody's) original assertion, I do believe that there is a 
reach/grasp relationship.   True creativity (as if such a thing can be 
declared) might seem to be in the reach more than the grasp.  AI still 
seems to be *grasping* what humans (the only sentience we are familiar 
with) has deigned/considered/imagined to *reach for*?

I will respond to Eric's astute point about imagination/creativity in 
(science) fiction under separate cover.

- yet another Smith

On 7/20/22 3:18 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and large, 
> lack imagination.
>
> The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is because sci-fi is 
> re-telling Descartes’s assertion that everything except humans 
> (probably, sotto voce, except him) are flat and affectless.  Maybe 
> even more than machines are that, we imprint that on the paradigm of 
> machine.  It’s just the age-old thing of people needing to feel 
> singular and important, and using vehicles like religion to 
> systematize their neediness.  That sci-fi prides itself on being 
> imaginative, while re-telling the same small portfolio of bible 
> stories and other similar sources is human Dunning-Krugerness on display.
>
> A world free of all that corruption probably has lots of dimensions of 
> possibility that humans will just drive by without noticing because 
> their minds are elsewhere.
>
> Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize is true and a good 
> one,
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson <d00d3rs0n at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots 
>> were calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek, 
>> basically a calculator with very little creative potential. But it 
>> seems like AI, as it develops, is actually more creative than its 
>> human counterparts.
>> Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the 
>> grandmaster, Lee Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never 
>> seen before. The art world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out 
>> of trained neural networks like Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they 
>> talk about a trick where the AI put a wheel on the grass to initiate 
>> a controlled slide. Do you think that modern Neural networks will 
>> give any insight into the nature of creativity?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/
>>
>> Cody Smith
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> wrote:
>>
>>     Two articles from MIT Tech Review.
>>
>>     https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/
>>     <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.technologyreview.com%2f2022%2f07%2f19%2f1056176%2fsonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast%2f&c=E,1,sW_uqrRPOXBSOBOKyAZBXmUeEC_gAg6bC8gm1INQST-ojGhCL2hs6hZ0n3OXOMaE29ZvHzCImJ-clJq2975O6Z7VJXWF-auEZX7UaV_rfFo7jCerKI3uQrTt&typo=1>
>>
>>     Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that
>>     they can learn to physically drive faster than people, but
>>     they're too aggressive to win head to head races because they
>>     drive the competition off the road.  So you need to train them to
>>     observe the norms of the competition, by including penalties for
>>     crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.  They still
>>     drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit
>>     disturbing to watch.
>>
>>     [So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would
>>     the norms come from established law or where the voters could be
>>     persuaded to mark their polls?]
>>
>>     https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/
>>     <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.technologyreview.com%2f2022%2f07%2f20%2f1056219%2fweed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome%2f&c=E,1,V2LEaPWTwH3T7VFjGfU7bcnhh0onNBmvFckXpaLoRhfL1fS-X5j4_shbXCArwd2na4pUY52IMOtyZK5VLSHLt7YD7qfxOsYsys64-ZDOhZIodihFmXY1Zg,,&typo=1>
>>
>>     The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the
>>     genetic causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the
>>     influencer blows up the study when she declares that the
>>     scientist is a shill on her channel.  Ah the joys of decision
>>     making with uncertainty and cognitive bias.
>>
>>     -- rec --
>>     -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>     FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>     Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>     https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>     <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,KaCIkwrOF_ZTUEfIQlXyZ2nJR3uiCxpLV90fxuVBgmzBGy_k9AzqwEI-2MpEJ7gsVu999Z3W_JMhoTbW_k6924gl5EXv6OvGJrpTrBuc9BpA&typo=1>
>>     to (un)subscribe
>>     http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>     <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,18P7i50qzgUKwgO6uuHQg1w-PtDqTieN81KoEvhATHOvAmbo1FAez-TvqoX5I1VKBs4SKCV2FBGDUNN51oEZULPhyJ2udtKeR76AKVe_L0AsulDo&typo=1>
>>     FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>     <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,4owu8uiwxcU9Xu2RQD9liQffFleDx5ray6bKWKDZf5sIssITDVWEH_UUxX7JSCw6yttPLYnaEQNGrlP3VNE9hiUxMxXAjzvAcPh1myqCU4C-ZqNUaQ,,&typo=1>
>>     archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>     https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>     <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,n3zr7bdE2NTovyRz458GEB71cnIZXgmac7oCvUMK8ZtMnp2CkRm2zNzt66dbfZaNMRGVLRQVS4xSe3W9mhTbvZR3edHX_1roBhAviO5A4sHUZ3YZwuDluyk,&typo=1>
>>       1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,s93vdAJ2Ee939HgqDnIzoONL8DV7vBn3BZQ2tDZbpqfagWpg9dkyJvnlrPOu5hMEiFp9g5rzvwMvPpJkO9QTxwOwhqxYndwx4TiBgJvBCjRzDXMMBQ,,&typo=1 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,s93vdAJ2Ee939HgqDnIzoONL8DV7vBn3BZQ2tDZbpqfagWpg9dkyJvnlrPOu5hMEiFp9g5rzvwMvPpJkO9QTxwOwhqxYndwx4TiBgJvBCjRzDXMMBQ,,&typo=1>
>> to (un)subscribe 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,kFQqZaphNgJ25ulnvKDMT1aqg-TbJbsNeW3GEf-1rzghmmxi7MrdoJG8n2RV0Lmk7NJm1s-r_m2rFUYJ455j6F4bO-z-bPCEOdoCf_Htru4Xj-OHCg,,&typo=1 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,kFQqZaphNgJ25ulnvKDMT1aqg-TbJbsNeW3GEf-1rzghmmxi7MrdoJG8n2RV0Lmk7NJm1s-r_m2rFUYJ455j6F4bO-z-bPCEOdoCf_Htru4Xj-OHCg,,&typo=1>
>> FRIAM-COMIC 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,XmCsYhLxGXRftYrt0clgaHeDuXzeTFm5Yk4jfcEEYVKTWeeFWgMBhtrci8AZdlwpyGbJvHVXZAeEDupABdo3y-NVTC3BH_NS6Bhr75SzZXM4wX4mliYpLJs,&typo=1 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,XmCsYhLxGXRftYrt0clgaHeDuXzeTFm5Yk4jfcEEYVKTWeeFWgMBhtrci8AZdlwpyGbJvHVXZAeEDupABdo3y-NVTC3BH_NS6Bhr75SzZXM4wX4mliYpLJs,&typo=1>
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,MdUd8yj78Z72GqbhsN4aGKCL7RwTWDY4RWZ4K1NF-uZyY7uyXJOYunZCFuYQi__TWHOIdb_AyNTFm_YCpheAnSZmGWn7Mem1Z1WvtEDxL9blyCooPlTs6yfFcQ,,&typo=1 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,MdUd8yj78Z72GqbhsN4aGKCL7RwTWDY4RWZ4K1NF-uZyY7uyXJOYunZCFuYQi__TWHOIdb_AyNTFm_YCpheAnSZmGWn7Mem1Z1WvtEDxL9blyCooPlTs6yfFcQ,,&typo=1>
>>  1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>    1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20220720/ef459945/attachment.html>