[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Fri Jul 5 10:47:57 EDT 2024

The context problem is fixable.  For example, through neural implants or robotics.  

Another movie:  https://youtu.be/3s0LTDhqe5A

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2024 7:46 AM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Consciousness, as understood by humans, is, probably, an "emergent complex phenomena" as Pieter suggests. However, it is not an intrinsic one—i.e., emergent from within the entity or a part of it, like the brain. 'It' emerges from a complex intimate interplay between the entity (brain?) and the environment/context.

Mammals (humans, apes, elephants, dolphins, cats, dogs, ...) share sufficient context (overlapping constraints as to sensory input for example) that we can confidently believe that we share roughly the same form of consciousness.

We have so little in common with Octopi, for example, that we can confidently infer both intelligence and consciousness, but it is definitely alien in nature and may very well be beyond our direct understanding.

Machine intelligence and consciousness might be possible, but there is almost zero overlap in context, so it is highly unlikely that we would ever recognize it. It is near absurd to think we can even infer either intelligence or consciousness from simply observing/analyzing outputs.

so I believe,

davew

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, at 10:04 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

I don't follow your logic.

I totally agree with you that a reductionist explanation of consciousness is not possible. I don't claim to understand anything about consciousness, but I believe that it's an emergent complex phenomena.

There are many examples where real world emergent behavior are duplicated in software. 

What makes consciousness different? Granted, it has not, to my knowledge been done, maybe there really are other factors involved? But I don't follow the explanation that because you can't explain consciousness using a reductionist approach it follows that, for example, an ABM approach will not some day explain consciousness.

Like in Joshua Epstein's if you haven't grown it you haven't explained it.

On Fri, Jul 5, 2024, 2:33 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> > wrote:

But they (AI) won't have consciousness as I, and presumably you, experience it.  I have long argued that a reductionist explanation of that consciousness is not possible.  Does that mean I accept a religious explanation?  Not consciously.

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 5:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net <mailto:jofr at cas-group.net> > wrote:

I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and consciousness...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/

-J.

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