[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

[Nicholas Thompson]

Oh, Barry.  I forgot to ask you the threshold question.  Do you agree that
attempting to extend the zone of honest agreement is a worthy goal.

On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 3:00 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Without going backward in my conversation, you and I could add this new
> data to the data-pack on go on.
>
> Let's go contrarian for a few strokes.  can you think of things that your
> Dusty has done that are inconsistent with love.
>
> Nick
>
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 1:23 PM Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackichan at mackichan.com> wrote:
>
>> I feel permitted to barge in on this discussion, since my dog (well, our
>> dog) is also named Dusty.
>>
>> Frequently, I look up from what I’m doing or reading, and he is in his
>> chair looking at me, and we can spend several minutes with our eyes locked.
>> I call it love; he doesn’t want to talk about it. I’ve read that this is
>> common behavior, and that it results in an oxytocin kick to both
>> participants. I think that chemical evidence is a good addition to the
>> other data in this discussion. My starting assumption is that if a peptide
>> is shared between species, the effects of that peptide probably share
>> similar mechanisms. I.e., the simplest explanation is that if it affects me
>> through emotions, the effect in my dog is probably through something very
>> much like an emotion. I’ve never seen any evidence that this is *not*
>> true.
>>
>> Concerning the list of consequences of a loving relationship at the end
>> of your message, I would say all three are absolutely true. My wife had
>> covid for the first time several months ago, and whenever she was in bed,
>> both our dogs were there. When they see we are upset — a frequent
>> occurrence in this election year — they will keep their eyes on us and
>> stick with us until they are reassured that we are (sorta) OK. They sense
>> emotions better than many humans I have known.
>>
>> When Dusty was a puppy, and I was out of town, my wife took him on a
>> walk, off leash, in the arroyo and slipped and fell on the icy path. When
>> she opened her eyes a few seconds later, Dusty had his nose right up
>> against her face.
>>
>> --
>>
>> On 12 Jul 2024, at 12:59, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>
>> [Please, Friammers,, if you join this discussion, stay close to this or
>> other closely related down-to-earth experiences.
>>
>> Dave, you offer as data:
>>
>>
>> *Dave is sleepy and calm.*
>>
>> *Dusty is anxious and afraid.*
>>
>> *Dusty crawls onto Dave's shoulder and finds reassurance and security.*
>>
>> *Dave is tolerant and does not shove Dusty off bed.*
>>
>> *Dave senses Dusty's need for reassurance and rests his arm across her
>> back and lets her stay as she is.*
>> *Dusty relaxes and goes to sleep.*
>>
>> You then offer the following guide to interpretation:
>>
>>
>> *Love is not present in this transaction, unless you presume that a
>> series of prior interactions created a kind of meta-state of Lovingness
>> between the two*
>>
>> I agree with you that love is a meta state in the sense that it is an
>> arrangement of other behavioral states.  So I will leave that alone.
>> Having so stipulated, I think it is reasonable to say, on the basis of the
>> data you set forth, that  a meta-state of lovingness exists between you.
>> (I would prefer to say you love one another, but partly in deference to SG,
>> I will adopt your lingo.]  To call your joint behavior loving is to perform
>> an abduction.  The test of an abduction is to examine the deductions that
>> flow from it:
>>
>> So, if Dave and Dusty have a loving relationship, then, on my
>> understanding, the following would be true:
>>
>> *You would protect one another against harm.*
>> *You would attend to one another if either was sick, injured, or
>> depressed.*
>> *You would  become uneasy if you were separated for an unexpectedly long
>> time.*
>>
>> Are these things true?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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