[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

[Marcus Daniels]

In the case of self-recognition, she now does not bark or paw at the mirror.  For months, as a youngster, she would walk by the mirror and be startled by the movement.  Now she ignores it.   If she sees me do something in the mirror, like put down an iPad, she tips her back to look at me to look at me – as if to see if anything is changing.    I can’t defend the other perception.   It is clear she has immediate visual discrimination of dogs and humans at the dog park, though.    

 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2024 3:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

 

Great.  Can you describe,in what ever detail seems right, what that seeming consists of?

 

nick

 

On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn.  She seems perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different.   While I don’t know she is looking at herself, she seems to understand the difference between me in a mirror and me right in front of her.   She no longer thinks it is another dog.

 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

 

On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Here is an example  If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond as if it's the bark of an intruder? 

If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism,  given that the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different  from the bark I would hear if if I were the hearer of my own bark.

 

Nick 


Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the  self-recognition in mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize their own odor in many tests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Species         | Mirror Self-Recognition    |
+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Infants         | Yes (18-24 months)         |
| Monkeys         | No                         |
| Chimps          | Yes (2-3 years)            |
| Dolphins        | Yes (2-3 years)            |
| Democrats       | Yes (18-24 months)         |
| Elephants       | Yes (2-3 years)            |
| Magpies         | Yes                        |
| Republicans     | Mixed                      |
| Gorillas        | Mixed                      |
| Orangutans      | Yes                        |
| Pigeons         | Mixed                      |
| Octopi          | No                         |
| Dogs            | No                         |
| Cats            | No                         |
+-----------------+---------------------------+

 

Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two. Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305. https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403. https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf
EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." Science, 167(3914), 86-87. https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8 <https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86> 

Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 98(10), 5937-5942. https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398 <https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593> 

Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 103(45), 17053-17057. https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053

 

FWIW,  I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness - though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind. 

 

-Stephen

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