[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

Mon Jul 15 19:22:29 EDT 2024

Hank my dog (with whom I have a loving relationship but who loves and is 
loved my Mary) barks at the TV when a barking sound emanates from it.  
If he sees a dog-figure cavorting on the screen he barks more vigorously 
even if the barking sounds ceases.  If he sees *any* animal like figure 
on the TV he *may* bark at it, depending on what else is going on in the 
room (or inside his head)  He even sometimes barks at little kid 
figures...   but not as much.

    <gallop>  Next to the TV is what I call "bird TV" something of a
    picture window where we have both hummingbird and conventional bird
    feeders.   He watches the birds but does not bark at them.  When
    they might fly into the window or toward it, veering off, he
    sometimes alerts and charges but does not bark. The other day he was
    barking out the window at the ground vigorously... there was a 6'
    long red-racer snake staring back at him/us which casually turned
    around and slithered off.   He only quit barking when it was no
    longer evident.   He barks directly into the window-pane at
    neighbors and vehicles at the end of our drive and at the sound of
    sirens and 18 wheelers engine-braking on the highway.  The sound of
    his bark has to be reflecting right back into his little ears but
    that doesnt' slow him down.  For a while he would hear his own bark
    resonating in our steel spiral staircase which was a high pitched
    near-echo? He would bark then turn around to see who was "barking?"
    behind him, then satisfied turn around and bark at the window again,
    rinse, repeat.... he did this off and on for months but now seems
    entirely bored with it.   If we make any noises mistakeable for a
    bark (like a chair or table leg drug abruptly) he barks in the
    general direction of the bark.    We have a lifesize photograph of
    his head with ears flying as he pops up over our entry gate...  we
    have shown it to him on the canvas as well as displayed on the
    television.  He is totally uninterested.   If we hold him up to the
    TV to see what he is barking at more closely, he paws at the screen
    but ceases barking when his sniffing self determines that the thing
    he is barking at has no smell and cant be reached through the
    glass.</gallop>

I still think he is acutely conscious and has a self-awareness, but it 
probably isn't registered on the things we want to project onto him... 
sight and sound matter for attention I think, but i suspect smell is key 
to recognition?

  Our cat (Cyd, with whom we both have a loving relationship but who 
ignores most everything but food, especially her name) does not have the 
slightest interest in anything on TV in a picture with or without sound, 
or even through the window mostly (hummingbirds 5 feet from her perch).  
Cats on TV are equally uninteresting to her as anything else.  I think 
she is as conscious as Hank and fully self-aware, but in an even more 
foreign sense to us than Hank.   The Red Racer and the Fish in the 
pond?  Absolutely... but again, yet more foreign.

Hank (sleeping nearby as I type) presents his dreams a lot more 
explicitely than Cyd...  I think he is conscious and self-aware in his 
dreams in a similar but completely different way as I am... he seems to 
wake up alternatively excited or scared as appropriate?

On 7/15/24 4:20 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> In the case of self-recognition, she now does not bark or paw at the 
> mirror.  For months, as a youngster, she would walk by the mirror and 
> be startled by the movement.  Now she ignores it.   If she sees me do 
> something in the mirror, like put down an iPad, she tips her back to 
> look at me to look at me – as if to see if anything is changing.    I 
> can’t defend the other perception.   It is clear she has immediate 
> visual discrimination of dogs and humans at the dog park, though.
>
> *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
> *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2024 3:07 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
>
> Great.  Can you describe,in what ever detail seems right, what that 
> seeming consists of?
>
> nick
>
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> 
> wrote:
>
>     Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn. 
>     She seems perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different. 
>      While I don’t know she is looking at herself, she seems to
>     understand the difference between me in a mirror and me right in
>     front of her.   She no longer thinks it is another dog.
>
>     *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM
>     *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>     <friam at redfish.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
>
>     On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54 AM Nicholas Thompson
>     <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         Here is an example  If you play a dog's bark back to him, does
>         he respond as if it's the bark of an intruder?
>
>         If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, 
>         given that the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from
>         the bark I would hear if if I were the hearer of my own bark.
>
>     Nick
>
>
>     Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the  self-recognition
>     in mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do
>     recognize their own odor in many tests.
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
>
>     +-----------------+---------------------------+
>     | Species         | Mirror Self-Recognition    |
>     +-----------------+---------------------------+
>     | Infants         | Yes (18-24 months)   |
>     | Monkeys         | No   |
>     | Chimps          | Yes (2-3 years)    |
>     | Dolphins        | Yes (2-3 years)    |
>     | Democrats       | Yes (18-24 months)   |
>     | Elephants       | Yes (2-3 years)    |
>     | Magpies         | Yes    |
>     | Republicans     | Mixed   |
>     | Gorillas        | Mixed    |
>     | Orangutans      | Yes    |
>     | Pigeons         | Mixed    |
>     | Octopi          | No   |
>     | Dogs            | No   |
>     | Cats            | No   |
>     +-----------------+---------------------------+
>
>     Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two.
>     Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305.
>     https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403.
>     https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf
>     EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." /Science/,
>     167(3914), 86-87. https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8
>     <https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86>
>
>     Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the
>     bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." /Proceedings
>     of the National Academy of Sciences/, 98(10),
>     5937-5942.https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398
>     <https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593>
>
>     Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006).
>     "Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." /Proceedings of the
>     National Academy of Sciences/, 103(45), 17053-17057.
>     https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053
>
>     FWIW, I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness
>     - though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind.
>
>     -Stephen
>
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