[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Nicholas Thompson
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Mon Jul 15 21:33:55 EDT 2024
I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I am
beginning to sense method in my madness.
I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. So, in
your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self conscious, I am inclined
to ask for more details. So the method goes something like this
We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is conscious.
>From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious, he
will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than otherwise. We
check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now add Cyd to the
list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if other conscious beings
do X with greater frequency than non conscious ones. If so, we have added
to the list of things that conscious beings do.
N
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 7:22 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
> Hank my dog (with whom I have a loving relationship but who loves and is
> loved my Mary) barks at the TV when a barking sound emanates from it. If
> he sees a dog-figure cavorting on the screen he barks more vigorously even
> if the barking sounds ceases. If he sees *any* animal like figure on the
> TV he *may* bark at it, depending on what else is going on in the room (or
> inside his head) He even sometimes barks at little kid figures... but
> not as much.
>
> <gallop> Next to the TV is what I call "bird TV" something of a picture
> window where we have both hummingbird and conventional bird feeders. He
> watches the birds but does not bark at them. When they might fly into the
> window or toward it, veering off, he sometimes alerts and charges but does
> not bark. The other day he was barking out the window at the ground
> vigorously... there was a 6' long red-racer snake staring back at him/us
> which casually turned around and slithered off. He only quit barking when
> it was no longer evident. He barks directly into the window-pane at
> neighbors and vehicles at the end of our drive and at the sound of sirens
> and 18 wheelers engine-braking on the highway. The sound of his bark has
> to be reflecting right back into his little ears but that doesnt' slow him
> down. For a while he would hear his own bark resonating in our steel
> spiral staircase which was a high pitched near-echo? He would bark then
> turn around to see who was "barking?" behind him, then satisfied turn
> around and bark at the window again, rinse, repeat.... he did this off and
> on for months but now seems entirely bored with it. If we make any noises
> mistakeable for a bark (like a chair or table leg drug abruptly) he barks
> in the general direction of the bark. We have a lifesize photograph of
> his head with ears flying as he pops up over our entry gate... we have
> shown it to him on the canvas as well as displayed on the television. He
> is totally uninterested. If we hold him up to the TV to see what he is
> barking at more closely, he paws at the screen but ceases barking when his
> sniffing self determines that the thing he is barking at has no smell and
> cant be reached through the glass.</gallop>
>
> I still think he is acutely conscious and has a self-awareness, but it
> probably isn't registered on the things we want to project onto him...
> sight and sound matter for attention I think, but i suspect smell is key to
> recognition?
>
> Our cat (Cyd, with whom we both have a loving relationship but who
> ignores most everything but food, especially her name) does not have the
> slightest interest in anything on TV in a picture with or without sound, or
> even through the window mostly (hummingbirds 5 feet from her perch). Cats
> on TV are equally uninteresting to her as anything else. I think she is as
> conscious as Hank and fully self-aware, but in an even more foreign sense
> to us than Hank. The Red Racer and the Fish in the pond? Absolutely...
> but again, yet more foreign.
>
> Hank (sleeping nearby as I type) presents his dreams a lot more
> explicitely than Cyd... I think he is conscious and self-aware in his
> dreams in a similar but completely different way as I am... he seems to
> wake up alternatively excited or scared as appropriate?
> On 7/15/24 4:20 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> In the case of self-recognition, she now does not bark or paw at the
> mirror. For months, as a youngster, she would walk by the mirror and be
> startled by the movement. Now she ignores it. If she sees me do
> something in the mirror, like put down an iPad, she tips her back to look
> at me to look at me – as if to see if anything is changing. I can’t
> defend the other perception. It is clear she has immediate visual
> discrimination of dogs and humans at the dog park, though.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson
> *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2024 3:07 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
>
>
>
> Great. Can you describe,in what ever detail seems right, what that
> seeming consists of?
>
>
>
> nick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn. She seems
> perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different. While I don’t know
> she is looking at herself, she seems to understand the difference between
> me in a mirror and me right in front of her. She no longer thinks it is
> another dog.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
> *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54 AM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is an example If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond
> as if it's the bark of an intruder?
>
> If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, given that
> the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from the bark I would hear
> if if I were the hearer of my own bark.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the self-recognition in
> mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize
> their own odor in many tests.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
>
> +-----------------+---------------------------+
> | Species | Mirror Self-Recognition |
> +-----------------+---------------------------+
> | Infants | Yes (18-24 months) |
> | Monkeys | No |
> | Chimps | Yes (2-3 years) |
> | Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years) |
> | Democrats | Yes (18-24 months) |
> | Elephants | Yes (2-3 years) |
> | Magpies | Yes |
> | Republicans | Mixed |
> | Gorillas | Mixed |
> | Orangutans | Yes |
> | Pigeons | Mixed |
> | Octopi | No |
> | Dogs | No |
> | Cats | No |
> +-----------------+---------------------------+
>
>
>
> Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two.
> Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305.
> https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403.
> https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf
> EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." *Science*,
> 167(3914), 86-87. https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8
> <https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86>
>
> Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose
> dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." *Proceedings of the National
> Academy of Sciences*, 98(10), 5937-5942.
> https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398
> <https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593>
>
> Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in
> an Asian elephant." *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*,
> 103(45), 17053-17057. https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053
>
>
>
> FWIW, I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness -
> though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind.
>
>
>
> -Stephen
>
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