[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 21:17:33 EDT 2024
Resolution is not necessary for me.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:11 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> All,
>
> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our
> shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we
> are in interaction with are conscious.
>
> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do
> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to
> resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>
> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the
> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an
> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what
> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>
> N
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no
>>> rel)?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae -
>>>>
>>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I
>>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be
>>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other
>>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate
>>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"...
>>>> showing off, being shy, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday
>>>> I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for
>>>> about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets"
>>>> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed
>>>> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little
>>>> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30
>>>> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and
>>>> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish
>>>> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming
>>>> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation
>>>> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming
>>>> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam
>>>> all over the dam, oh damn!" .
>>>>
>>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the
>>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than
>>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I
>>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter,
>>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing
>>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to
>>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies,
>>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were
>>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp
>>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size
>>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for
>>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again
>>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond
>>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing
>>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or
>>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both
>>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds
>>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers
>>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or
>>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the
>>>> circulation going in the coldest periods).
>>>>
>>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or the
>>>> 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name
>>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of
>>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are
>>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of
>>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand
>>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a
>>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the
>>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe
>>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?).
>>>>
>>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world
>>>> and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in
>>>> Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle,
>>>> Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>).
>>>>
>>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce
>>>> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill.
>>>> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to
>>>> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to
>>>> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than
>>>> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into
>>>> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower?
>>>> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just
>>>> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of
>>>> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat
>>>> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to
>>>> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge
>>>> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on
>>>> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all
>>>> animals do.
>>>>
>>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are
>>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the
>>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some
>>>> are big on insects...
>>>>
>>>> (typing like nobody is reading)....
>>>>
>>>> - Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind in
>>>> everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad
>>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my
>>>> keyboard.
>>>>
>>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to
>>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to
>>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the
>>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could
>>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all
>>>> self-conscious.
>>>>
>>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am
>>>> going there now.
>>>>
>>>> N
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog)
>>>>>> a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty
>>>>>> that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of
>>>>>> Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions.
>>>>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what
>>>>> would you tell me to look for?*
>>>>>
>>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is
>>>>> your request. around the 15th of July.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution
>>>>> of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining
>>>>> what they want.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a
>>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places
>>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee,
>>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these
>>>>> days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. Dusty
>>>>> has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted
>>>>> to vocalize herself.
>>>>>
>>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise
>>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous
>>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely,
>>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training.
>>>>>
>>>>> davew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> David, and all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I
>>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say
>>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I
>>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I
>>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here
>>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.*
>>>>>
>>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I
>>>>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant
>>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it
>>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels
>>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with
>>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow
>>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree
>>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we
>>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other
>>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your
>>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the
>>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an
>>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that
>>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you
>>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that,
>>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original
>>>>> attribution.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> davew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part,
>>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we
>>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch
>>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had
>>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other
>>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far.
>>>>>
>>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted
>>>>> with no concern.
>>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa.
>>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside),
>>>>> inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional
>>>>> nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the
>>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am
>>>>> curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards
>>>>> consensus of any kind.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me:
>>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.
>>>>>
>>>>> davew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote:
>>>>> > Nick -
>>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and
>>>>> I
>>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness.
>>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of
>>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central
>>>>> > creatures in my household.
>>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank.
>>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as
>>>>> far
>>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in
>>>>> particular) does.
>>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self
>>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method
>>>>> goes
>>>>> >> something like this
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is
>>>>> conscious.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of
>>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the
>>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only
>>>>> allows
>>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging
>>>>> her
>>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second
>>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers,
>>>>> acts,
>>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top
>>>>> of
>>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary
>>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive
>>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an
>>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the
>>>>> world.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship
>>>>> with" a
>>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think
>>>>> that is
>>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees
>>>>> them
>>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is
>>>>> conscious,
>>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than
>>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we
>>>>> now
>>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if
>>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non
>>>>> conscious
>>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious
>>>>> >> beings do.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that
>>>>> A,
>>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion,
>>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and
>>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of
>>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the
>>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or
>>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their
>>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of
>>>>> their
>>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like
>>>>> the
>>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet
>>>>> more
>>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to
>>>>> learn...
>>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them
>>>>> the
>>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the
>>>>> tip
>>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be
>>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from
>>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very
>>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal
>>>>> observations).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong
>>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say
>>>>> yes.
>>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their
>>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they
>>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root
>>>>> growth
>>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this
>>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under
>>>>> the
>>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be
>>>>> entirely
>>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual
>>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which
>>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a
>>>>> branch or
>>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not
>>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then
>>>>> perhaps
>>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic
>>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of
>>>>> "proto-consciousness"
>>>>> > to?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or
>>>>> systems
>>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in
>>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their
>>>>> own ways.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very
>>>>> hard
>>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it
>>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the
>>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all
>>>>> of
>>>>> > these are predators, no?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>> Clark University
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>> Clark University
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>>
>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
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