[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Nicholas Thompson
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 21:22:51 EDT 2024
This would suggest to me either that you don't give a damn about the matter
or that you are a believer in Holy Individuality.
So which is it? (};-)]
N
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 9:17 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Resolution is not necessary for me.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:11 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our
>> shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we
>> are in interaction with are conscious.
>>
>> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do
>> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to
>> resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>>
>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the
>> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an
>> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what
>> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no
>>>> rel)?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae -
>>>>>
>>>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I
>>>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be
>>>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other
>>>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate
>>>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"...
>>>>> showing off, being shy, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday
>>>>> I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for
>>>>> about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets"
>>>>> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed
>>>>> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little
>>>>> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30
>>>>> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and
>>>>> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish
>>>>> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming
>>>>> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation
>>>>> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming
>>>>> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam
>>>>> all over the dam, oh damn!" .
>>>>>
>>>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the
>>>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than
>>>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I
>>>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter,
>>>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing
>>>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to
>>>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies,
>>>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were
>>>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp
>>>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size
>>>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for
>>>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again
>>>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond
>>>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing
>>>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or
>>>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both
>>>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds
>>>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers
>>>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or
>>>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the
>>>>> circulation going in the coldest periods).
>>>>>
>>>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or
>>>>> the 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name
>>>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of
>>>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are
>>>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of
>>>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand
>>>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a
>>>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the
>>>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe
>>>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?).
>>>>>
>>>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world
>>>>> and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in
>>>>> Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle,
>>>>> Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce
>>>>> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill.
>>>>> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to
>>>>> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to
>>>>> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than
>>>>> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into
>>>>> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower?
>>>>> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just
>>>>> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of
>>>>> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat
>>>>> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to
>>>>> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge
>>>>> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on
>>>>> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all
>>>>> animals do.
>>>>>
>>>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are
>>>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the
>>>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some
>>>>> are big on insects...
>>>>>
>>>>> (typing like nobody is reading)....
>>>>>
>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind
>>>>> in everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad
>>>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my
>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to
>>>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to
>>>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the
>>>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could
>>>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all
>>>>> self-conscious.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am
>>>>> going there now.
>>>>>
>>>>> N
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other
>>>>>>> dog) a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by
>>>>>>> Dusty that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind
>>>>>>> of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions.
>>>>>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what
>>>>>> would you tell me to look for?*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is
>>>>>> your request. around the 15th of July.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the
>>>>>> attribution of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for /
>>>>>> obtaining what they want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a
>>>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places
>>>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee,
>>>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30
>>>>>> these days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up.
>>>>>> Dusty has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been
>>>>>> tempted to vocalize herself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise
>>>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous
>>>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely,
>>>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> davew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David, and all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I
>>>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say
>>>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I
>>>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I
>>>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here
>>>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I
>>>>>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant
>>>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it
>>>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels
>>>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with
>>>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow
>>>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree
>>>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we
>>>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other
>>>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your
>>>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the
>>>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an
>>>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that
>>>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you
>>>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that,
>>>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original
>>>>>> attribution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> davew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <
>>>>>> profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part,
>>>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we
>>>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch
>>>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had
>>>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other
>>>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted
>>>>>> with no concern.
>>>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa.
>>>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside),
>>>>>> inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional
>>>>>> nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the
>>>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am
>>>>>> curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards
>>>>>> consensus of any kind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me:
>>>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> davew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote:
>>>>>> > Nick -
>>>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness.
>>>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of
>>>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central
>>>>>> > creatures in my household.
>>>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank.
>>>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as
>>>>>> far
>>>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in
>>>>>> particular) does.
>>>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self
>>>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method
>>>>>> goes
>>>>>> >> something like this
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is
>>>>>> conscious.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the
>>>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only
>>>>>> allows
>>>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second
>>>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers,
>>>>>> acts,
>>>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the
>>>>>> top of
>>>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary
>>>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive
>>>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an
>>>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the
>>>>>> world.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship
>>>>>> with" a
>>>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think
>>>>>> that is
>>>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is
>>>>>> conscious,
>>>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than
>>>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we
>>>>>> now
>>>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if
>>>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non
>>>>>> conscious
>>>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious
>>>>>> >> beings do.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know
>>>>>> that A,
>>>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of
>>>>>> motion,
>>>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and
>>>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the
>>>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or
>>>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their
>>>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to
>>>>>> learn...
>>>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the
>>>>>> tip
>>>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be
>>>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from
>>>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very
>>>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal
>>>>>> observations).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong
>>>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say
>>>>>> yes.
>>>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their
>>>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they
>>>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root
>>>>>> growth
>>>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this
>>>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be
>>>>>> entirely
>>>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual
>>>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D)
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a
>>>>>> branch or
>>>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not
>>>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then
>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline
>>>>>> phenotypic
>>>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of
>>>>>> "proto-consciousness"
>>>>>> > to?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or
>>>>>> systems
>>>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their
>>>>>> own ways.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very
>>>>>> hard
>>>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the
>>>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that
>>>>>> all of
>>>>>> > these are predators, no?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>> Clark University
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>
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--
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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