[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 21:55:18 EDT 2024
It means I think getting everyone to agree is probably impossible and
unnecessary in any case.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:23 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> This would suggest to me either that you don't give a damn about the
> matter or that you are a believer in Holy Individuality.
>
> So which is it? (};-)]
>
> N
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 9:17 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Resolution is not necessary for me.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:11 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our
>>> shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we
>>> are in interaction with are conscious.
>>>
>>> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do
>>> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to
>>> resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>>>
>>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the
>>> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an
>>> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what
>>> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>>>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no
>>>>> rel)?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I
>>>>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be
>>>>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other
>>>>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate
>>>>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"...
>>>>>> showing off, being shy, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here.
>>>>>> Yesterday I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and
>>>>>> purchased for about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the
>>>>>> "feed other pets" market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little
>>>>>> guys are normally fed to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters
>>>>>> called "little fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the
>>>>>> way home (just 30 mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once
>>>>>> acclimatized and released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where
>>>>>> the bigger fish live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort
>>>>>> zone swimming "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the
>>>>>> pump/recirculation feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the
>>>>>> spillway swimming upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit
>>>>>> of "swam and swam all over the dam, oh damn!" .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the
>>>>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than
>>>>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I
>>>>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter,
>>>>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing
>>>>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to
>>>>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies,
>>>>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were
>>>>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp
>>>>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size
>>>>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for
>>>>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again
>>>>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond
>>>>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing
>>>>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or
>>>>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both
>>>>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds
>>>>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers
>>>>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or
>>>>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the
>>>>>> circulation going in the coldest periods).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or
>>>>>> the 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name
>>>>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of
>>>>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are
>>>>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of
>>>>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand
>>>>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a
>>>>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the
>>>>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe
>>>>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world
>>>>>> and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in
>>>>>> Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle,
>>>>>> Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a
>>>>>> leaf-lettuce rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my
>>>>>> windowsill. Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I
>>>>>> find a way to help them float with their roots underwater and their growing
>>>>>> leaf-cores to reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit
>>>>>> slower/duller? than mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses
>>>>>> (growing their roots into the water, growing their leaves into the
>>>>>> sunlight/air), albeit slower? Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if
>>>>>> so barely, or perhaps just "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they
>>>>>> are much if at all aware of me, much less my intentions of pulling them
>>>>>> apart limb from limb to eat them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary,
>>>>>> on the other hand sings to her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive
>>>>>> compared to when I am in charge of their water-offerings. I look forward
>>>>>> to little fishies nibbling on their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich
>>>>>> nutrients in the way all animals do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are
>>>>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the
>>>>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some
>>>>>> are big on insects...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (typing like nobody is reading)....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind
>>>>>> in everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad
>>>>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my
>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to
>>>>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to
>>>>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the
>>>>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could
>>>>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all
>>>>>> self-conscious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am
>>>>>> going there now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> N
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other
>>>>>>>> dog) a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by
>>>>>>>> Dusty that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind
>>>>>>>> of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial
>>>>>>> expressions. Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a
>>>>>>> weekend; what would you tell me to look for?*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is
>>>>>>> your request. around the 15th of July.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the
>>>>>>> attribution of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for /
>>>>>>> obtaining what they want.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a
>>>>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places
>>>>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee,
>>>>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30
>>>>>>> these days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up.
>>>>>>> Dusty has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been
>>>>>>> tempted to vocalize herself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise
>>>>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous
>>>>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely,
>>>>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> davew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David, and all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I
>>>>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say
>>>>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I
>>>>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I
>>>>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here
>>>>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where
>>>>>>> I prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant
>>>>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it
>>>>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels
>>>>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with
>>>>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow
>>>>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree
>>>>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we
>>>>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other
>>>>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your
>>>>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the
>>>>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an
>>>>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that
>>>>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you
>>>>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that,
>>>>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original
>>>>>>> attribution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> davew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <
>>>>>>> profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part,
>>>>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we
>>>>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch
>>>>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had
>>>>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other
>>>>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted
>>>>>>> with no concern.
>>>>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa.
>>>>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside),
>>>>>>> inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional
>>>>>>> nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the
>>>>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am
>>>>>>> curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards
>>>>>>> consensus of any kind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me:
>>>>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
>>>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
>>>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then
>>>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a
>>>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> davew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote:
>>>>>>> > Nick -
>>>>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials
>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness.
>>>>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of
>>>>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central
>>>>>>> > creatures in my household.
>>>>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank.
>>>>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach
>>>>>>> as far
>>>>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in
>>>>>>> particular) does.
>>>>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self
>>>>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method
>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>> >> something like this
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is
>>>>>>> conscious.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the
>>>>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only
>>>>>>> allows
>>>>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at
>>>>>>> begging her
>>>>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second
>>>>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers,
>>>>>>> acts,
>>>>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the
>>>>>>> top of
>>>>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way
>>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive
>>>>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an
>>>>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the
>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship
>>>>>>> with" a
>>>>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think
>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she
>>>>>>> frees them
>>>>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is
>>>>>>> conscious,
>>>>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than
>>>>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if
>>>>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non
>>>>>>> conscious
>>>>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious
>>>>>>> >> beings do.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know
>>>>>>> that A,
>>>>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of
>>>>>>> motion,
>>>>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and
>>>>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or
>>>>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their
>>>>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who
>>>>>>> like the
>>>>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to
>>>>>>> learn...
>>>>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching
>>>>>>> them the
>>>>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of
>>>>>>> the tip
>>>>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very
>>>>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal
>>>>>>> observations).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"...
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong
>>>>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say
>>>>>>> yes.
>>>>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their
>>>>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they
>>>>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root
>>>>>>> growth
>>>>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this
>>>>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be
>>>>>>> entirely
>>>>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual
>>>>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D)
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a
>>>>>>> branch or
>>>>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then
>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline
>>>>>>> phenotypic
>>>>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of
>>>>>>> "proto-consciousness"
>>>>>>> > to?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or
>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their
>>>>>>> own ways.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the
>>>>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that
>>>>>>> all of
>>>>>>> > these are predators, no?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>>> Clark University
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
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>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
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